Romans eating out.

[Andrew Dalby]

A.D., I am sure that you are correct about that site. Could you supply a time line for the migration of the fruits to western Europe?

 

Sorry about the delay replying, GO --

 

in fact it's hardly possible (I think) to give a more definite timeline than my sketch earlier in this thread. On the whole, when gardeners share plants with their neighbours to west or east (and that's how plant migrations often happen) they don't bother to write it down ...

 

However, the earliest date is fixed -- the text is date-stamped! As a not-quiter-answer, I'll tell you what (I think) we can learn from this earliest mention.

 

Theophrastus in "History of Plants", which reads rather like the papers of a research seminar in the Aristotelian school, says specifically (at one point) that he is writing in 310 BC (he names the archon of Athens for the year). In the same book he describes many plants that are never mentioned in earlier Greek literature before and says that they are found in Persia, Media, Aria and India. It is universally assumed, I think rightly, that he can do this because he is reporting discoveries (by Greeks) of very recent years: it is known that Aristotle, Theophrastus's predecessor as head of the school, had sent scientists ('philosophers') along with Alexander's expedition.

 

One of the plants, very carefully described, is a tree that just has to be the citron. This means that it was NOT known in the Mediterranean area at that time, nor, probably, in Iraq (otherwise he wouldn't have described it as a new discovery in Media and Persia: and if it had been already grown in Iraq, Herodotus and Xenophon might already have mentioned it. But, admittedly, you can't argue too strongly from a negative). There is plenty of other evidence that Persians were enthusiastic gardeners and transplanters of useful plants, so it would not be surprising if Persians had been the first to bring this plant westwards from India.

 

The next bit of evidence about the citron is (as said by others above) that it came to be used by Jews in their ritual. But when, exactly? I'd like to be able to say, but I think those who can read Hellenistic and Roman Jewish texts (in Aramaic mainly) are better placed to comment ...

 

The later spread of the citron in classical times can be traced with the help of mentions by Dioscorides, Galen and -- especially -- Athenaeus.

 

How's that for a start?

[Gaius Octavius]

Very good of you, Dr. AD. Thanks. Now, I am wondering if any of the frescoes extant, picture these fruits, and thus might produce a time frame?

Edited April 27, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Nephele]

The next bit of evidence about the citron is (as said by others above) that it came to be used by Jews in their ritual. But when, exactly? I'd like to be able to say, but I think those who can read Hellenistic and Roman Jewish texts (in Aramaic mainly) are better placed to comment ...

 

I couldn't say when exactly, but I do know that Rome's Jews were engraving pictures of citrons (a Jewish symbol) on their burial plaques during the time of the Empire. Some of these Roman Jewish burial plaques are on exhibit in the Antiquities Collection of the Jewish Museum in New York City -- specifically, the burial plaques of Aelia Septima and Aurelia Quintilla.

 

-- Nephele

[Andrew Dalby]

Very good of you, Dr. AD. Thanks. Now, I am wondering if any of the frescoes extant, picture these fruits, and thus might produce a time frame?

 

OK, OK, the garden fresco from "Livia's House" in Rome depicts a fruit which might well be either citrons or lemons. I haven't seen it at first hand or in colour. If one decides they are lemons, then this would be the first definite evidence of lemons in the Med; if citrons, then it is evidence that citrons had reached central Italy by the time of Augustus.

[The Augusta]

Very good of you, Dr. AD. Thanks. Now, I am wondering if any of the frescoes extant, picture these fruits, and thus might produce a time frame?

 

OK, OK, the garden fresco from "Livia's House" in Rome depicts a fruit which might well be either citrons or lemons. I haven't seen it at first hand or in colour. If one decides they are lemons, then this would be the first definite evidence of lemons in the Med; if citrons, then it is evidence that citrons had reached central Italy by the time of Augustus.

 

I have seen the fresco first hand. Of course it is hard to get a true picture due to fading of the colours etc., but I seem to remember that the fruits seemed a little 'round' for lemons? I'll have another look in October - providing the house has re-opened, of course.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

I have seen the fresco first hand. Of course it is hard to get a true picture due to fading of the colours etc., but I seem to remember that the fruits seemed a little 'round' for lemons? I'll have another look in October - providing the house has re-opened, of course.

Unfortunately Augusta the House of Livia was still closed when I was there in March Fingers crossed it will have re-opened by the time you go in October.

[Maty]

A minor, and possibly irrelevant point is that when Spartacus & co came rampaging out of their gladiator school, the first bit of Italy which they pillaged was a local takeaway where they equipped themselves with carving knives, cleavers, and enough assorted cutlery to fight their way out of town. Either the presence of such a nearby takeway was a fortunate co-incidence, or more probably (as the archaeological evidence suggests) local eateries were even more common than similar establishments today.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Maty

[caldrail]

No. They obtained the weapons from the kitchens of the training school where they were kept. They found a cart laden with gladiatorial weaponry soon afterward in the town nearby. A local 'takeaway' joint could have armed maybe three or four people, not up to seventy.

[Maty]

No. They obtained the weapons from the kitchens of the training school where they were kept. They found a cart laden with gladiatorial weaponry soon afterward in the town nearby. A local 'takeaway' joint could have armed maybe three or four people, not up to seventy.

 

H'mm I'll stand corrected on this. Plutarch is specific about the number - 78 escapees. The word for the place where they got their culinary arsenal is harder to translate - the most accurate would be 'cooking shop', but maybe some language specialists can have a go. It's the Life of Crassus 8. Given the number of spits in even a standard Roman kitchen, I'd reckon on picking up a dozen at least in a street eatery. Add about the same in cleavers and carving knives, and you probably have enough to get out of town with. (They found the rest of their kit outside town whilst heading for the hills)

[Primus Pilus]

Appian says this...

At the same time Spartacus, a Thracian by birth, who had once served as a soldier with the Romans, but had since been a prisoner and sold for a gladiator, and was in the gladiatorial training-school at Capua, persuaded about seventy of his comrades to strike for their own freedom rather than for the amusement of spectators. They overcame the guards and ran away, arming themselves with clubs and daggers that they took from people on the roads, and took refuge on Mount Vesuvius

 

Plutarch...

Two hundred of these planned to make their escape, and when information was laid against them, those who got wind of it and succeeded in getting away, seventy-eight in number, seized cleavers and spits from some kitchen and sallied out. On the road they fell in with waggons conveying gladiators' weapons to another city; these they plundered and armed themselves.

 

Paterculus says only this of the entire affair...

While war was being waged against Sertorius in Spain sixty-four runaway slaves, escaping from a gladiatorial school in Capua, seized swords in that city, and at first took refuge on Mount Vesuvius; then, as their number increased daily, they afflicted Italy with many serious disasters. Their number grew to such an extent that in the last battle which they fought they confronted the Roman army with ninety thousand men. The glory of ending this war belongs to Marcus Crassus, who was soon by unanimous consent to be regarded as the first citizen in the state.

 

Livy's unfortunately limited Periochae doesn't provide any detail on the weapons...

Seventy-four gladiators escaped from the school of Lentulus at Capua, gathered a large number of slaves and workhouse prisoners, began a war under command of Crixus and Spartacus, and defeated the army of praetor Publius Varenus and his deputy Claudius Pulcher.

 

Florus also doesn't mention how they initially gathered their weaponry

But the war raised by the efforts of Spartacus I know not what name to call, for the soldiers in it were slaves, and the commanders gladiators; the former being persons of the meanest condition, and the latter men of the worst character, and adding to the calamity of their profession by its contempibleness. Spartacus, Crixus, and Oenomaus, breaking out of the fencing school of Lentulus, escaped from Capua, with not more than thirty of the same occupaion, and, having called the slaves to their standard, and collected a force of more than ten thousand men, were not content with merely having escaped, but were eager to take vengeance on their masters. The first theatre for action that attracted them was Mount Vesuvius.

 

Cassius Dio's account is lost in the fragments of books 30 - 35.

 

Both Plutarch and Appian seem to leave the matter open to interpretation really.

[caldrail]

Its also misleading to assume that spartacus had command of an army of gladiators. His escapees formed a cadre of trained fighters, although there's no guarantee that all them were fully trained. Some may have been new recruits. The remainder of his army was formed from free citzens or absconded slaves who decided they stood to gain in some way from Spartacus's little venture. Mind you, its also forgotten that Spartacus was not the sole leader. Crixus and Oenomaus were also leaders who later broke off with their own contingent (and got trashed by roman legionaries soon afterward). What we have here is an example of quality of leadership. Mommsen actually ponders whether Spartacus was a 'scion of noble birth' for this reason, typical of the upper-class superiority attitude of his day. I really don't think so. The man was a rogue who had some talent for guerilla warfare, and some experience as a bandit which he put to good use.

 

What comes across is the ease by which Spartacus & co got out. Even after their initial plot was discovered, security at the school did not stop the escape. Lentulus Batiatus, the lanista concerned, is sometime reckoned to have been careless. Possibly, but then the guards at the school don't seem to have done much either. Was it so unthinkable that slaves could escape? The slave revolts of Sicily were still within living memory and training in gladiatorial schools of this era was notoriously harsh and brutal.

 

One thing that has to be said is that the escapees did not arm themselves at the school with swords or whatever. Evidently some security was in place and worked. Does anyone know what happened to Batiatus afterward? I don't see any mention of him in the historical records afterward!

[Correvs]

Our word "peach" actually does derive from the Latin "persicum" (Persian apple).

 

So when did the peach (as we know it) make it's way to the Roman world?

 

Is "persicum" the sam as "persicis"?

[Flavia Gemina]

Sorry to re-open the discussion on lemons but as they are integral to my third book, set in AD 79, I feel very strongly about them.

 

When I was at the Villa Poppaea in Oplontis a few years ago, the guide told us they found extensive root system of lemon trees. There is the perhaps dubious lemon tree of the Villa Livia, already mentioned. But this one, from Pompeii, is clearly a lemon tree!