The Growth of Catholicism

[docoflove1974]

This is interesting, but the power of the Church in some locations doesn't tell us about how widely Catholicism had spread. For example, were the orders you cited to be found in North Africa? Spain? Turkey? Japan? There had to be some limits, and it's impossible to talk about the growth of the Church without knowing its spatial and temporal boundaries.

 

I'm sure that the growth beyond Western Europe had its basis in the Crusades; although this puzzles me, as the Crusaders accounts (that I've read, at least) project a local attitude toward the Crusaders that was generally not very positive, although I'm sure that this wasn't the case everywhere.

 

As for the Cistercians in particular, and those who had many of these 'cults', most of the ones that I know of were centered in Western and Central Europe. I know that there were some Catholic monasteries in Northern Africa, but I have no idea about the extent of their power, and one imagines that once the Arabic raiders came in at full force, well, there went the Catholics for the most part.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

I know that there were some Catholic monasteries in Northern Africa, but I have no idea about the extent of their power, and one imagines that once the Arabic raiders came in at full force, well, there went the Catholics for the most part.

Catholic monastieries in N. Africa? Are you sure? I though N. Africa and Iberia were held by the Visigoths before the Arab invasion. Weren't the Visigoths Aryan Christians?

[Divi Filius]

Catholic monastieries in N. Africa? Are you sure? I though N. Africa and Iberia were held by the Visigoths before the Arab invasion. Weren't the Visigoths Aryan Christians?

 

Africa was heavily Donatist, a groups which was heavily persecuted by both the Orthodox-Catholic Roman Empire and the later Arrian Vandals and then the Byzantines.

 

Iberia was Catholic and the Visigoth conquerers eventually converted out of Arrianism.

[Julius Ratus]

I fully agree, that's way I used the term "patriarh of Rome", but this brings another question: how you define catholicism especially in comparison with orthodoxy?

Usually authors name those who obeyed the Nicean edicts as catholics. So, Justinian was a catholic and so was Clovis.

Can we say the same about Vasile II Bulgarochton and Otto in early XI C (before the great schism)?

Can we speak of orthodox and catholics before 1054? We could say that each patriarch had control over an area within the greater christian church and we could call this areas catholic, orthodox (with an added problem for the 3 patriarchs of the Middle East)

 

My personal definition: Catholic means the Universal Church. Let's just say that which church is The Church is debated. Modern usage of the term Catholic almost always refers to the Roman Church. The Roman Church as a seperate entity goes way back, probably to the founding of the religion, having always had their own Bishop. The Roman Church as a seperate church all together I think goes back to the 1054 schism and the Filoque controversy. When they started adding words to The Creed, they became a different church from that of the East.

 

Before 1054 I would not refer to the Churches being Catholic or Orthodox, because they were still one Church in Communion with one another. They were different organizations though. In the East there were the Greeks, Antiochians, and Alexandrians, one could possibly add the Slavic churches to this as well, despite their being under the guidence of Constantinople. In the West there were the Romans, the Germans, and the Celtic churches, and there were differences between them. The German Church was not fully part of the Roman church until after the reign of Friedrich Barbarosa.

 

My 2 cents worth on a complicated topic.

[Flavius Claudius Iulianus]

Sorry about not coming back to this topic earlier... in any case, I have some more questions:

 

I've heard that Catholic Trinitarianism was considered rather nonsensical amongst the barbarians, but how was it seen by the Romans themselves? I assume that the elite didn't have a problem with it, but I'm wondering how did the ordinary people view Catholic theology, and whether they even concerned themselves with religious matters at all. I remember Ambrose saying once that congregations were dwindling, but I'm not sure what context that was made in. In any case, were they simply "naive rustics" who didn't really care what their god was supposed to be, as long as they were able to live decently? Was the Christian in-fighting of the era a popular movement, or was it largely conceived and directed by the ruling elite?

 

This brings me to a similar question; was the general population of Western Europe during this period of time largely Nicene, or was it more split? Individual states had their own religous views amonst the elite, but what did the people believe? What was the result of attempts by the authorities to enforce a particular creed? It was interesting to hear that North Africa remained largely Donatist throughout, despite the repressive measures of the Romans, Vandals and Byzantines; I suppose that this indicates that Donatism did have a sizeable base of support among the population. Was Donatism itself a kind of anti-state movement?

 

And as a point of comparison, how did the Arab invasions affect Christians in conquered provinces?

 

I have one more question: to what extent did the Catholic Church influence the decisions of secular authorities of Rome and the barbarian states? In the case of the Roman Empire, I've been getting the impression that they merely managed to influence individual emperors, rather than the apparatus of the state as a whole. Emperors such as Julian and Valentinian I were generally able to pursue religious policy of their own, while the same can't be said for emperors such as Gratian, Theodosius I, or his successors. There may have been a point where the state became too weak to set its own policy, but when it posessed that capability, it seems that it was an emperor's individual beliefs that were reflected in their decisions.

 

Thanks for considering these questions, I appreciate the responses.