miguel Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 There are Chinese accounts of Rome and Byzantium. (see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/romchin1.html), showing that China and Rome had been sending embassies. But somehow I cannot find any references to China or Chineses in Roman documents. Does anyone know about this? Any references? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 There are Chinese accounts of Rome and Byzantium. (see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/romchin1.html), showing that China and Rome had been sending embassies. But somehow I cannot find any references to China or Chineses in Roman documents. Does anyone know about this? Any references? There are mentions of Chinese and silk by Pliny the Elder and Seneca but only Florus makes any mention of diplomatic contact that I am aware of. I can't find an English version but I'll do my pathetic best to translate... From Epitome II; XXXIV relating the reign of Augustus Nam et Scythae misere legatos et Sarmatae amicitiam petentes. Seres etiam habitantesque sub ipso sole Indi, cum gemmis et margaritis elephantos quoque inter munera trahentes, nihil magis quam longinquitatem viae inputabant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maladict Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 (edited) I don't think it was an official delegation sent by Antoninus Pius, but more likely enterprising merchants posing as ambassadors. That might explain the absence of Roman documents on the matter. Edited April 11, 2007 by Maladict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miguel Posted April 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 There are mentions of Chinese and silk by Pliny the Elder and Seneca but only Florus makes any mention of diplomatic contact that I am aware of. From Epitome II; XXXIV relating the reign of Augustus Nam et Scythae misere legatos et Sarmatae amicitiam petentes. Seres etiam habitantesque sub ipso sole Indi, cum gemmis et margaritis elephantos quoque inter munera trahentes, nihil magis quam longinquitatem viae inputabant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Who were these merchants? From Syria...Arabia..Persia, perhaps? But from the above text given by PP there should be Chinese and Indians went to the Daqin, bring their tribute (am I right?). In this case should there be Roman documents on this? Whether the Middle East served a cross roads even then between India and China to the West is a good question. If they did this is almost to have effected the Roman Empire in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Thanks! The translation is good enough for me (as I know nothing about Latin language). And, oh yes, I've found an English-Latin translator saying that the Latin for Chinese is Seres. But the interesting thing is that I cannot find 'China' in Latin. Does anyone know about this? Or perhaps there is actually no 'China' in Latin, and anyone could explain why? Here is some more... Ptolemy Geography The inhabited part of our earth is bounded on the east by the Unknown Land which lies along the region occupied by the easternmost nations of Asia Major, the Sinae and the nations of Serice Actually, while digging around, I found that the wiki has a nice collection of quotes including the one above... Seres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludovicus Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 "...the Latin for Chinese is Seres" How interesting! The Spanish for silk is "seda" and in Italian "seta." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 "...the Latin for Chinese is Seres" How interesting! The Spanish for silk is "seda" and in Italian "seta." Indeed, its certainly a reference to silk. The Romans seemingly just applied the name of the popular good to the land (and people) that it originated from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miguel Posted April 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Whether the Middle East served a cross roads even then between India and China to the West is a good question. If they did this is almost to have effected the Roman Empire in some way. Agree. In what way would this have effected the Roman Empire? I believe somehow there are connections between India and China, the Middle East and the West, but as I am not very knowledgeable about this, can anyone tell me how were they connected? Here is some more...Ptolemy Geography The inhabited part of our earth is bounded on the east by the Unknown Land which lies along the region occupied by the easternmost nations of Asia Major, the Sinae and the nations of Serice Actually, while digging around, I found that the wiki has a nice collection of quotes including the one above... Seres Interesting. So Seres is refering to the northwestern part of China... does that mean the Romans (assuming they had really been 'visiting' China) had only reached the northwestern part? From another wiki article about Marcus Aurelius, Roman representatives met the Chinese Emperor in Luoyang which was located on the centre plain of China. Is this a false account or...other reasons? "...the Latin for Chinese is Seres" How interesting! The Spanish for silk is "seda" and in Italian "seta." Indeed, its certainly a reference to silk. The Romans seemingly just applied the name of the popular good to the land (and people) that it originated from. Haha they certainly did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 From another post... The information I've got to date amounts to this... The chinese explorer Chang Ch'ien investigated central asia c.138bc and brought back reports that included Egypt. Caravans have already begun circulating goods between Rome and China without direct contact. East to west trading predominates. The parthians were keen to foster this trade. Rome exported glass, copper, tin, lead, red coral, textiles, pottery, and currency. They imported arabian incense, chinese silk, and from India precious stones, muslin, and spices. In 85ad roman links with Taprobane (ceylon) had been established. A chinese general by the name of Pan Ch'ao was busy controlling oases in the mongolian desert against any threat and fended off a Kushan invasion from India in 90ad. Following that, Pan Ch'ao led his army across the Pamir Mountains to reach the Caspian Sea. There he made contact with the parthians in 97ad who persuaded him not to send an embassy to Rome. The parthians I think, were wary of allowing themselves to be threatened by a roman/chinese alliance. By the end of the 1st century ad chinese merchants have established links in roman Syria. This appears to be a one-off visit. 100ad saw the publication of 'The Peoples of the Erythraean Sea', a roman guide to navigating the Indian Ocean. The Silk Road was opened for business c.112ad. Caravans did not usually travel straight through but goods were passed between local peoples, and the parthians/persians in particular gained an economic boost from the additional tolls. By 360ad chinese merchants were said to have reached the Euphrates. I'm not sure if this was a regular occurence or another exploratory mission. During the 3rd century ad the Silk Road is becoming unviable as the chinese are pushed out of the Tarim basin. Both Rome and China are under pressure from northern barbarians. Sea travel becomes the alternative. Greek ships are known to reach Ceylon, and chinese vessels meet indian merchants at Oc Eo in Cambodia. I don't know of any accounts of these meetings but the information has definitely come to light in the research of historians and archaeologists. It isn't something that has been picked up by roman commentators either, who might not have felt that foreign merchants visiting was particularly interesting. Rome after all thought itself the center of the world and seemed to wait for the world to come to it, rather than go out and explore. An intersting aside is that Trajan was on the march in the east at the same time as Pan Ch'ao's expedition to Parthia. They came very close to meeting and no doubt was the reason the parthians were keen to prevent the romans and chinese from linking up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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