The Dark Ages

[Rameses the Great]

Clearly after the fall of Rome, can be pointed out when Europe plummeted into the Dark Ages. The thing I don't understand is why is Rome directly linked and a benefactor of the Dark Ages? It seems that Western Europe, in particular, seemed not to have been able to keep order.

[Zeke]

Rameses...I don't understand what your question is. Please rephrase it....

 

-Zeke

[Rameses the Great]

Why did the Dark Ages happen after the fall of Rome? Mere coincidence or is there more to the situation.

[docoflove1974]

Why did the Dark Ages happen after the fall of Rome? Mere coincidence or is there more to the situation.

 

A bit of both, as I understand it, that it was the right place and right time for a change in culture and perspective on life. Plus, the term "Dark Ages" is pretty specific to Western and Central Europe; Eastern Europe had been 'lost' by the Empire earlier, various parts of Asia were still thriving in civilization (India, China, just to name a couple), and the Middle East carried on the learning traditions (plus their own) of the Classical Greek and Roman empires.

 

What can be said is this: with the 'fall' of the Roman empire, there was less centralized 'Roman' influence, so that the infrastructure of life--the roads, trade, the army--was in disrepair, or not nearly in the same shape as they were in the 'glory days' of the Empire. I've always heard the term "Dark Ages" to refer to the closed societies, little literacy, little trade from 'outsiders'. It's pretty biased, true, but the 'Re-Birth' that comes in the 1300-1400 range comes from the 're-introduction' of learning and culture, the opening of societies to more distant trade, and a change in culture, really.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Well, the Dark Ages was named so because the Roman way of life and its centralized government seemed lost to the barbarian wars for dominance and horrible plagues that seemed to occur too often . Id est, the Lombard invasion into Italy, the Franks under Clovis warring against other Germanic tribes, and much more. On the other hand, the Dark Ages weren't so dark because the territories that the barbarians were trying to conquer were largely Christian and loyal to the Pope, whom was also loyal to the Eastern Roman emperor. In essence, the barbarians also had to gain the approval of the Pope in exchange for legitimacy amoung the Christian people(eg Gallia et Italia), which is how it became political in the Middle ages. So at least the people had some hope.

Edited April 7, 2007 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Divi Filius]

Why did the Dark Ages happen after the fall of Rome? Mere coincidence or is there more to the situation.

 

Not necessarily following the "fall of Rome", since when and how that occurred can be debated, but the passing of the (western) provinces into what we consider to be "barbarian" warlords. The lands also saw the decentralization: Rome lost control and thus the locals began forming what we consider to be"manorialism", that is a rural based society where wealthy individuals provide defense for the farmer(through "mercenaries" -- which could also be the peasant himself, and defense works)

 

This is not to say that it occurred immediately after 476(the date I presume you thought of). It was actually a long drawn out process that started in small stages during the 3rd century crisis and increased rapidly through the 4th and 5th, eventually taking over.

 

As this sort of society took-over Europe, the quality of life also decreased. During the 4th and 5th centuries people began to abandon the cities since they were difficult to defend without a strong state and instead moved to far more safe positions in the countryside. Higher ground was usually preferred(in France many stone age sites were reoccupied) and so we see the rise of the castle.

 

The process was long and drawn out, it did not occur overnight and nor was it a process which was alien to the Romans. In fact it was Roman landlords which initiated this throughout the empire when the Roman army began to fail. The Germanic barbarians were incorporated slowly into this new society and eventually became the dominant factor.

 

This, along with the fact that the new landlords were not well adept in Roman civilization, is the reason why the major works of the previous periods are no more. There simply is not enough wealth to produce it; and not nearly enough men capable of understanding it.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Divi Filius

[caldrail]

Clearly after the fall of Rome, can be pointed out when Europe plummeted into the Dark Ages. The thing I don't understand is why is Rome directly linked and a benefactor of the Dark Ages? It seems that Western Europe, in particular, seemed not to have been able to keep order.

The term Dark Age is partly a reflection of the importance of roman culture in our history, since the romans somewhat arrogantly assumed that theirs was better than everyone elses. Now, that was fine until the reign of Honorius. In AD410 he received an embassy from Britain begging for military support - The Groan of the Britains. He refused, and from that point the britons were on their own. They attempted to retain some semblance of romanic life despite the incursions of foreigners (the period from where the legend of King Arthur springs). Archaeology shows that many roman habitations are becoming abandoned at this time, as romano-celts either choose or are forced to assume a more simple/celtic lifestyle. The old roman order had collapsed without external direction leaving communities to struggle on. What was left was under pressure from the foreigners who were expanding across britain piecemeal, colonising and raiding.

 

On the one hand, the period is no longer 'under the light' of roman culture, whilst on the other fewer historical records survive from this period making a 'dark hole' in history. The locals at the time may well have regarded themselves living in a 'dark age', now that the golden age of roman power was past. In fact, the dark ages were no more ignorant any other period nor was it any more savage. It was a chaotic violent time however in which britain was undergoing political and demographic change.

 

Many of these statements can also be applied to mainland europe since the collapse of the west in AD476. The roman empire had changed since its glory days and was no longer the unified culture of old nor one that lived by the same standards.

 

Therefore the term 'Dark Age' is something of a misnomer. What is strange about this period is that the remainder of the roman empire, the Byzantines, seem to fade away from peoples conciousness as something too distant when they had much more immediate problems to face, yet the byzantines maintained a sophisticated city state for centuries.

[M. Porcius Cato]

In fact, the dark ages were no more ignorant any other period nor was it any more savage. It was a chaotic violent time however in which britain was undergoing political and demographic change....

Therefore the term 'Dark Age' is something of a misnomer.

It's a perfect name. If you want to argue the opposite, please point us to the splendors of Dark Age architecture, Dark Age engineering, Dark Age legal codes, let alone Dark Age pottery, sculpture, paintings, literature, and science. Compared to the Hellenistic age in which Rome flourished, the Dark Ages were a nightmare in human history.

[Northern Neil]

It's a perfect name. If you want to argue the opposite, please point us to the splendors of Dark Age architecture, Dark Age engineering, Dark Age legal codes, let alone Dark Age pottery, sculpture, paintings, literature, and science. Compared to the Hellenistic age in which Rome flourished, the Dark Ages were a nightmare in human history.

The archaeological record supports this statement absolutely, at least with respect to Western Europe. In 400, ordinary people lived under tiled roofs, had a varied selection of pottery vessels suited to multiple functions, had access to luxury products made some distance away, and access to imported wines. A hundred years later they were living under thatch, cooked, ate and drank from basic round pots, had virtually no luxury items unless very rich and drank beer or mead.

[longbow]

Book of Kells its Irish but was wrote by the monks on the Scottish islands.

 

 

Lindisfarne gospels

[M. Porcius Cato]

It's a perfect name. If you want to argue the opposite, please point us to the splendors of Dark Age architecture, Dark Age engineering, Dark Age legal codes, let alone Dark Age pottery, sculpture, paintings, literature, and science. Compared to the Hellenistic age in which Rome flourished, the Dark Ages were a nightmare in human history.

The archaeological record supports this statement absolutely, at least with respect to Western Europe. In 400, ordinary people lived under tiled roofs, had a varied selection of pottery vessels suited to multiple functions, had access to luxury products made some distance away, and access to imported wines. A hundred years later they were living under thatch, cooked, ate and drank from basic round pots, had virtually no luxury items unless very rich and drank beer or mead.

Quite right. In fact, if you just look at the bones of Dark Age cattle, you can see that even the animals were starving.

[M. Porcius Cato]

I'm so glad you brought up the Book of Kells. Note the total disappearance of linear perspective, anatomically correct human anatomy, naturalistic depiction of animals, optically correct shading, and on and on. Heck, even the literature (the gospels) is simply a re-telling of events from...the Hellenistic Mediterranean by ancient writers. To the writings of the ancient world, all they could do in the Dark Ages was doodle in the margins. Yes, the doodles and calligraphy were pretty, but that's not culture--it's penmanship.

[longbow]

In 400, ordinary people lived under tiled roofs, had a varied selection of pottery vessels suited to multiple functions, had access to luxury products made some distance away, and access to imported wines

Did the ordinary people of Britain live this way?every home made from stone and tiles?i find that hard to believe,but i'm no expert!

[M. Porcius Cato]

Did the ordinary people of Britain live this way?every home made from stone and tiles?i find that hard to believe,but i'm no expert!

Who's an "ordinary" Brit? Fact is when Caesar arrived in Britain, there no tiled roofs, the animals were scrawny and mangy, food was served on wooden boards, and they beat the ground with sticks for entertainment (or was that their religion?). When Romans ruled Britain, tiled roofs appeared all over, animals grew fat and healthy, food was served on fine pottery, and theaters and baths were erected--all while resisting native rebellion. When the Romans left and the natives were left to their own devices, civilization (i.e., city life) collapsed, animals starved, and material comforts plummeted. The Romans could be a cruel and nasty bunch, mind you, and they didn't spread their wealth among the barbarians equally of course, but let's not pretend that the collapse of Roman civilization was a seamless transition to an equally comfortable age. It was a Hobbesian horror.

[longbow]

An ordinary Brit is someone who a Roman would probably consider a slave,or at best a serf!

 

the animals were scrawny and mangy

hey beat the ground with sticks for entertainment (or was that their religion?)

 

When Romans ruled Britain, tiled roofs appeared all over, animals grew fat and healthy, food was served on fine pottery, and theaters and baths were erected

The wonders of a tiled roof.

how did the animals suddenly get healthy,did the romans change the grass .

Theatre's and baths were erected for the Roman occupiers,how does that add 'culture' to the British?

did the south African's let the natives into there cinema's in the 70's etc?

 

but let's not pretend that the collapse of Roman civilization was a seamless transition to an equally comfortable age. It was a Hobbesian horror.

 

I have no doubt,but i dont think the place a shinning example of civilisation before the Romans left,even if they did bring (for themselves) tiled roofs and mosaic floors.