Plebeian magistrates before 366?

[Schabbes]

Hi everyone,

 

In 366 B.C. the first Plebeian became consul, patricians and plebeians began mixing, and the forming of the nobility began, blablabla. So far so good, everyone and his brother tell you that. But what about before 366? Were there Plebeians in the senate (i guess so), if so, since when? And which magistracies did they hold? Did aedileship exist before 366? And could someone give me a hint as to where one can find the sources to the leges Liciniae Sextiae? And does the manbearpig really exist?

 

Yours confusedly

Schabbes

 

P.S.: And, still unclear to me: Were all patricians part of the new nobility?

Edited March 28, 2007 by Schabbes

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Here is a good article on the nobility:

 

Nobiles from William Smith at Lacus Curtius.

 

I believe Plebs first started entering the Senate around the founding of the Republic, well before 366 in any case. After the censhorship was created, new senators could be chosen from amon ex-magistrates, but didn't have to be per se. Some were chosen just based on their family and status.

 

The Aedileship began in 446 BC. Edit: This is incorrect, they started around the founding of the Republic...see my second reply below for more details.

 

You can find the lex licinia here:

 

LEGES LICINIAE SEXTIAE at the Roman Law Library...Latin only, sorry! (I will try to find an English version)

Edited March 28, 2007 by Publius Nonius Severus

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Sorry...some factual errors and omissions. It is assumed the Aedileship began around the same time as the Tribune of the Plebs (494 BC) and they were elected from among the plebs.

 

Curule Aediles began shortly after the leges Licinia Sextiae as well as the office of Praetor, both were meant only for Patricians. Edit: Praetors became available to Plebs in 337 BC.

 

Quaestors also began sometime after the Republic was fouded and at first only available to patricians. After 421 BC it was available to either order, but there were no plebeian quaestors before 409 BC.

 

So to Summarize:

 

Consuls - 509 BC

Quaestors (509-504?)

Tribunes - 494 BC

Plebeian Aediles - 494 BC

Censor - 443 BC

Praetor - 356 BC - Corrected by Edit

Curule Aediles - 366 BC

Edited March 28, 2007 by Publius Nonius Severus

[M. Porcius Cato]

So to Summarize:

 

Consuls - 509 BC

Quaestors (509-504?)

Tribunes - 494 BC

Plebeian Aediles - 494 BC

Censor - 443 BC

Praetor - 356 BC - Corrected by Edit

Curule Aediles - 366 BC

 

What is this a summary of? Firsts? Changes in policy? Plebs were not continuously serving in the consulship since 509. This is a good topic, but something is amiss.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Sorry for any confusion, here is a more comprehensive chart:

 

 

 

 

*By year open to all orders it should be noted that this was either the date of the law enabling both patricians and plebeians to serve or the first recorded date of either a patrician or plebeian actually serving, whichever occurred first.

 

***Quaestors were established soon after the Republic was founded. The date is most likely between 509-504 during one of Publicola's consulships - I will try to nail this down lateras well as the exact dates when both types of aedileships were available to both orders.

 

My source is Livy and William Smith's dictionary.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Nice work.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Thank you Cato...

 

Just to update...I have been unable to affix a definitive date for the creation of the Quaestors. All that I have been able to find is that the office as created by Valerius Publicola during one of his four consulships between 509-504 BC.

 

I am also unable to find any sources on a definite date of the the universality of the curule aedileships either. If someone can find a primary source it would be appreciated.

[M. Porcius Cato]

According to a detailed discussion of the matter in Forsythe's "Critical History of Early Rome", the office of praetor was created in 367, not 363. Based on common usage, Livy's use of the term praetor maximus shouldn't be taken as a type of praetor, but as a post that was superior to praetor (i.e., consul).

[Publius Nonius Severus]

According to a detailed discussion of the matter in Forsythe's "Critical History of Early Rome", the office of praetor was created in 367, not 363. Based on common usage, Livy's use of the term praetor maximus shouldn't be taken as a type of praetor, but as a post that was superior to praetor (i.e., consul).

 

You are correct, there was an error in my chart. I have not included any reference to when the Consuls used to be called praetors. Just to remove any ambiguity, here are the passages of Livy on the matter.

 

Livy 6.42 Abridged (367BC)

The Dictator, however, quieted the disturbances by arranging a compromise; the nobility made a concession in the matter of a plebeian consul, the plebs gave way to the nobility on the appointment of a praetor to administer justice in the City who was to be a patrician".

 

Livy 7.1 Abridged (366 BC)

"This year will be noteworthy for the first consulship held by a plebeian, and also for two new magistracies, the praetorship and the curule aedileship. These offices the patricians created in their own interest as an equivalent for their concession of one consulship to the plebs, who bestowed it on L. Sextius, the man who had secured it for them. The patricians secured the praetorship for Sp. Furius, the son of old Camillus, and the two aedileships for Gnaeus Quinctius Capitolinus and P. Cornelius Scipio, members of their own order. L. Aemilius Mamercus was elected from the patricians as colleague to L. Sextius."

 

I have updated the chart as well as seen below (I am too lazy to post another image):

 

Postion / Yr Created / Initial Order / Yr Open to All Orders

========================================

 

Consuls / 509 / Patrician / 366

Quaestors / 509-504 / Patrician / 421

Tribunes / 494 / Plebeian / Never - Always Plebeian

Aediles / 494 / Plebeian / Soon after Curule Aedile Creation

Censor / 443 / Patrician / 351

Praetor / 366 / Patrician / 337

Curule Aediles / 366 / Patrician / Soon After Creation

Edited March 29, 2007 by Publius Nonius Severus