Isolationism and WWII

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Julius Ratus, the PzIII was no match for the Matilda II or the CharB. The PzIV could but was not out in the numbers that it should have. Yes, you proved my point, the Germans made better use of their tanks, in other words they had a much better doctrine of armoured warfare. Potentially the Allied armies were stronger though - they were just misused - tanks being used in penny packets is a good example.

I never compared the Stuka to any fighter. I'm just saying it's first appearance disconcerted the Allies so much they did not realize it's Achilles heel, it's slow speed and vulnerability to fighter attack. If they had this terrifying weapon would not have had half the effect it did. It was overrated because later ground attack aircraft in the War like the Mosquito, Typhoon and Thunderbolt were far more effective in their role and could also make mincemeat of any fighter opposition, something the Stuka just could not do.

[Rameses the Great]

If I'm not mistaken the German tanks were invincible to Allied forces until the Soviets took those tanks out of Siberia.

[Julius Ratus]

Julius Ratus, the PzIII was no match for the Matilda II or the CharB.

 

You got me. I looked it up and the Pz III's in use in '40 were the Ausf A's and E's, with the 3.7 cm KwK 36 L/46.5 gun. I was thinking of the intermediate models with the 5 cm KwK 38 L/42. I had thought that a few of the 50's were out by then but it seems they weren't. Still, the 15mm of armour on the Pz III would stop the puny 2 pndr's used by the Matilda. The 75's (despite their low velocity) used by the Char's was a different story.

 

If I'm not mistaken the German tanks were invincible to Allied forces until the Soviets took those tanks out of Siberia.

 

The German tanks were not invincible to the allied tanks, as my above discussion with Gladius xx points out, but, on average, pre-Tiger the Soviets had better tanks than anyone else, just not alot of the good ones.

 

The Soviets were paranoid that the Germans were super advanced so they kept on building bigger and better tanks. They thought that the T-34's and the KV-1's would be obsolete by the beginning of the war. Instead they were better than anything the Germans or the Allies had at that point.

 

A minor correction, the tanks weren't laying around in Siberia. Most of the tanks of the Soviet Union were in the West, and were destroyed in the early phase of the war. The salvation that came from Siberia were the Siberian Divisions, some of which were tank units. The main advantage of the Siberian Divisions was that they were a whole bunch of already trained units for the Soviets to throw into battle, and plus, they had mostly escaped Stalin's purges intact.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

An additional point JR - the antitank guns the Germans used in the France campaign - the 37mm Pak, was a useless piece of junk. It's users referred to it as the door-knocker. This was really seen during the British counterattack at Arras, where the 7th Panzer Div came within an inch of defeat and the SS Totenkopf men actually broke and ran before the Matildas. It was the Germans' imaginative use of the 88mm Antiaircraft gun and the 105mms they had that saved the day.

The Germans did not have a reliable antitank gun until the advent of the 50mm Pak

Edited March 28, 2007 by Gladius xx

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

I may also be wrong about von Moltke

Well, the sweep across Belgium and the Low Countries was actually the brainchild of Graf von Schlieffen but you are right in that the younger von Moltke implemented the plan in the Great War. He did not strengthen the right flank, which was Schlieffen's dying wish, and the Germans suffered consequently.

[Gaius Octavius]

I don't know the names of the last German tanks, but they were superior to the American Shermans in fire power and armor. The German tanks could reach the Shermans before the Shermans could get a shot off and their shells would bounce off the German tanks. The problem for the Germans was their inability to build enough tanks fast enough.

 

The Axis economies could never really support a war against the U.S. Once the U.S. geared up for war, the Axis was finished. After Pearl Harbor, a Japanese admiral said that he feared that they had 'awakened a sleeping giant'. Rommel said that so long as the U.S. had a toe hold in Africa, the Germans could never win.

 

The Soviets conducted a 'scorched earth' policy and removed all of their war production to the Urals. The Germans, Italians, etc., would probably never have defeated the USSR. The Japanese feared a Soviet entry into the Asian mainland war.

 

Please do not understand the above as in any way demeaning the efforts of the other Allies and their valiant people.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

After Pearl Harbor, a Japanese admiral said that he feared that they had 'awakened a sleeping giant'.

 

The Admiral gave Japan three months. He was educated in America (I forget the college) and knew our economic system. Lo and behold, he was right.

 

BTW, it was the German General Staff, not me, that considered the French Army the strongest in Europe.

 

Where may I see this for myself?

Edited March 29, 2007 by Antiochus of Seleucia

[Gaius Octavius]

After Pearl Harbor, a Japanese admiral said that he feared that they had 'awakened a sleeping giant'.

The Admiral gave Japan three months. He was educated in America (I forget the college) and knew our economic system. Lo and behold, he was right.

 

It might have been Yamamoto. Maybe Harvard. He liked America and loved to play poker. Lost his last hand.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

It might have been Yamamoto. Maybe Harvard

It was Yamamoto and it was Harvard. He gave 6 months, not 3, until the tide turned.

Where may I see this for myself?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/18553266...%3D#reader-link

http://www.amazon.com/French-Army-1939-45-...im/1855326663/1

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/attac...ern_europe1.htm

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php...b0929a631d2bacb

Also read "The Other Side of the Hill" by B.H. Liddell Hart

"To Lose a Battle" by Alistair Horne

"The Fall of France" by Julian Jackson

[Julius Ratus]

I don't know the names of the last German tanks, but they were superior to the American Shermans in fire power and armor. The German tanks could reach the Shermans before the Shermans could get a shot off and their shells would bounce off the German tanks. The problem for the Germans was their inability to build enough tanks fast enough.

 

The German 'animals' (Tigers, Panthers, Elefants, etc...) could beat the crap out of the Shermans, but the poor old Pz III's were outdated and the Pz IV's had a superior gun, but that's it. Also, the terrain of Normandy and Northern France made ambush a great tactic, lending itself well to German assault guns and tank destroyers such as the StuG III's and Marders. The Sherman wasn't a bad tank, it was just outdated by 1944, until the M4A3 came out. Even then, the German panzer crews were far better than our tankers.

 

The Soviets conducted a 'scorched earth' policy and removed all of their war production to the Urals. The Germans, Italians, etc., would probably never have defeated the USSR. The Japanese feared a Soviet entry into the Asian mainland war.

 

The Germans probably could have beaten the Soviets, had they dropped their stupid racial policies. Had they recruited the 'sub-human Slavs', as they called them, rather than exterminating them, they would have had millions of additional troops. Most Ukrainians and Balts hated the Soviets, and many Russians themselves would have been glad to have seen the Soviet Union go down. If the Germans had been liberators rather than invaders they may have won. Instead, the 'master race' was crushed by those they called 'sub-human'.

[Gaius Octavius]

The Germans actually did recruit(?) a Ukrainian army which was used against the Soviets.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Even then, the German panzer crews were far better than our tankers.

The German Panzer crews remained excellent for most of the duration of the War but it is important to remember that towards the end they did go through a steep decline qualitatively.

There were many reasons for this but mainly the high attrition and horrific casualties in the Eastern Front were responsible for this. Also Germany was suffering from chronic lack of fuel due to the Ploesti oilfields in Romania being captured by the Russians and the aerial offensive carried out on oil installations by the Americans. This meant that tank crews had less time to train (the Luftwaffe went through and identical problem).

For most of 1945 Allied and possibly even Russian tank crews actually equalled the Panzermen in quality and possibly excelled them. Only the formidable quality of the German tanks themselves helped the situation a little.

Edited March 30, 2007 by Gladius xx

[Kosmo]

American isolationism played a minor part in the begining of WW2 by withdrowing from Europe after WW1.

Germans lost WW1 in the West but won in the East. After the war it was little that could stop germans and russians knocking out the small and weak East european countries. It all depended on the conflict or agreement between the two powers that could actually influence the region. So, the position of France and UK of support of status quo was not tenneble in the long run. They accepted german revision of the borders, but eventually started to get nervous. Hitler wanted to prove they cannot do anything and Stalin achieved a great victory without opposition in a masterpiece of diplomacy. British made a disatrous decison and the war was declared.

[Julius Ratus]

The Germans actually did recruit(?) a Ukrainian army which was used against the Soviets.

 

There were two, the Army of Liberation, and the Army of National Liberation. The first never got really far because Hitler never trusted them, mostly because they were not entirely corrupt. The second did come into existence because its leaders were on very good terms with Himmler. They were utterly terrible. Their only exploits that come to mind were the raping of an entire cancer ward, and getting so drunk that a regiment fled from a platoon sized partisan unit of Poles.

 

In addition to these, there were various Cossack units employed by the Germans and the SS had a few Ukrainian, Byelorussian, and Russian units.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

And then there was the Kaminski Brigade. Kaminski was a drunken lout who collected a bunch of Nazi Ukranian sadists and thugs that went on a rampage during the Warsaw uprising. They were real heroes when it came to killing women and children but in combat these gangsters were the first to turn tail and run.

Kaminski was eventually shot by the Germans.