Where were the Scythians?

[docoflove1974]

Call me weird, but my bed-time-reading is currently Herodotus' The Histories. It's pretty much the only chance I get to read for pleasure. I'm currently on Book 4, all about the Scythians, and I'm trying to place them geographically. In (chapter?) 11, he describes whereabouts the people are from (he says they're nomadic tribes from Asia), that they are in the Black Sea area, near where the Cimmerians and the Cappadocians were. When I look at the map in the book (the Penguin volume, in the front of the volume), I don't see the Scythian kingdom labeled on there.

 

So, 2 questions:

 

1) Was Scythia really in the area of the Cimmerians, or elsewhere?

2) That's near where the Hittites were said to be located...if I recall correctly. Did they come in and take over the area from the Anatolian tribes?

 

(I haven't gotten too far into book 4, so bear with me!)

 

Thanks!

[The Augusta]

Doc, I don't believe it! I'm always caught out by the Scythians too.

 

Perhaps this map will help

 

Or this one

Edited March 16, 2007 by The Augusta

[Kosmo]

Scythians controlled the steppes. That means the plains north of Black Sea, Caucasus, Caspian Sea and the plains of Central Asia. On a modern map will be south and central Ukraine, South Russia and Kazahstan.

An early Scythians tribe called agatirsii settled the Transilvanian plateau.

Latter they created small kingdoms in the area between Danube and the Black Sea, south of Low Danube. This is the reason why the region was called Scythia Minor in the late empire. By then scythians had disapeared long ago from history and the name was applied to many steppe tribes.

[Divi Filius]

When I look at the map in the book (the Penguin volume, in the front of the volume), I don't see the Scythian kingdom labeled on there.

 

Its not your fault, there is a great amount of ambiguity when trying to locate the Scythians. One of the main reasons is because of the generalization of ancient historians. Practically anything located around the steppes is associated with Scythians. This was used even for the Goths.

 

Often times it is difficult to determine whether the tribes were infact "scythian" or some other group( such as Turanic)

[DecimusCaesar]

Kosmo is correct. Scythian grave finds have been recorded all across these areas between the Donets river and the Dniestr river. The majority of the largest grave finds in Scythian territory seems to be around Melgunov, Gaimonov, Chertomlyk, Solokha, Kul Oba, Kelermes and Kostromkaya. Most of these lies between Crimea and the modern city of Kiev. Althougfh sites such as Kelermes and Kostromskaya are to the north of the Caucasus. Most of this information can be found in the Scythians 700-300 BC by Russian historian and archaeologist Dr. E V Cernenko.

[Nerva]

Does anyone know of any relation between the Scythians and the Sarmatians? They seem to have come from the same region, no? Did the Scythians evolve into the Sarmatians?

[Gaius Octavius]

Were these the people (Scythians) that Herodotus spoke of as having one eye in the middle of their foreheads?

Edited March 16, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Marcus Caelius]

An almost completely irrelevent derail:

 

Devotees of "The Late, Great Planet Earth" held that the Biblical Last Battle between Good and Evil, Armegedon, would occur on the plain of Meggido, and be fought between America and the Soviet Union. I have no idea how America got dragged into it, but apparently Soviet Union -> Hammer and Sickle -> Scythian. I understand the real reason the Scythians are mentioned in the Bible at all (Colossians 3:11) is that they represented the most-remote non-Greek peoples in the known/rumored world.

[Divi Filius]

Does anyone know of any relation between the Scythians and the Sarmatians?

 

They must of had a relationship comparable to that of Medes and Persians.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Divi Filius

[Pantagathus]

1) Was Scythia really in the area of the Cimmerians, or elsewhere?

In 4.11, Herodotus talks about the Massagetae (A tribe from roughly modern Kazakhstan whom he talks about in Book 1) pushing/pressuring the Scythians west and across the Araxes (Volga not Aras) river into

[docoflove1974]

b.) Some Cimmerians that had extended into Georgia/Caucasian Iberia were pushed into Asia Minor when the Scythians were pushed west by the Massagetae.

 

Caucasian Iberia??? The only Iberia that I had heard of was the peninsula of Sherry, Rioja, and Porto Fino...

 

 

Pantagathus, great map that you linked. So, what everyone's saying is that think 'Central Asia' or 'West-Central Asia', and this Scythians, more or less? Does that mean that the peoples of the Caucuses are the descendants of this band of people? I'm sure there are many other factors interrelated, too.

 

Also (side question): Parthia always refers to Persia, or at least that region?

[Divi Filius]

Doco,

 

Not my favorite source, but it will do: Caucasian Iberia

 

They are mentioned very often, here is one thats right off the top of my head:

War between Armenia and Iberia:

 

In the same year war broke out between the Armenians and Iberians, and was the cause of very serious disturbances between Parthia and Rome. Vologeses was king of the Parthians; on the mother's side, he was the offspring of a Greek concubine, and he obtained the throne by the retirement of his brothers. Pharasmanes had been long in possession of Iberia, and his brother, Mithridates, ruled Armenia with our powerful support. There was a son of Pharasmanes named Rhadamistus, tall and handsome, of singular bodily strength, trained in all the accomplishments of his countrymen and highly renowned among his neighbours. He boasted so arrogantly and persistently that his father's prolonged old age kept back from him the little kingdom of Iberia as to make no concealment of his ambition. Pharasmanes accordingly seeing the young prince had power in his grasp and was strong in the attachment of his people, fearing too his own declining years, tempted him with other prospects and pointed to Armenia, which, as he reminded him, he had given to Mithridates after driving out the Parthians. But open violence, he said, must be deferred; artful measures, which might crush him unawares, were better. So Rhadamistus pretended to be at feud with his father as though his stepmother's hatred was too strong for him, and went to his uncle. While he was treated by him like a son, with excessive kindness, he lured the nobles of Armenia into revolutionary schemes, without the knowledge of Mithridates, who was actually loading him with honours.

 

--Tacitus, Annals XII.37

[Moonlapse]

A Ptolemaic world map created by Nicolaus Germanus, derived from Geographia, has the label 'Scithia' in the area of modern Kazakhstan, with 'Sarmacia' in the areas north of the Black Sea.

[The Augusta]

Also (side question): Parthia always refers to Persia, or at least that region?

 

I found that a bit confusing on the map too. Until the advent of the Parthian Empire, Persia and Parthia are seen on maps as two distinctly different areas. Persia proper was the southern part of Iran even in Cyrus' time (6thC BC) and Parthia a little more north. The map that Pan links must be one indicating the 'beyond the Euphrates' edge of the Roman empire, so it is understandable that 'Parthia' stretches over the whole land mass. I suppose it is more correct to say that this area is ancient Iran, and both Parthia and Persia were part of it.

 

Hopefully, this should make it clear how they stood in relation to each other

[docoflove1974]

Doco,

 

Not my favorite source, but it will do: Caucasian Iberia

 

They are mentioned very often, here is one thats right off the top of my head:

War between Armenia and Iberia

 

No kidding...well, hey, that's what I get for focusing so much on the Romance world! Thanks, DF!

 

Augusta: that map helped much...thanks! I love reading Herodotus, but in reading all of this, I used to think I was really good at geography. Apparently I have so much more to learn!