Optimates VS. Populares

[M. Porcius Cato]

The same they did during social war. First they refused to give Italians roman citisenship, provoked them to bloody war which had devastating results for both Rome and Italy and after victory granted citisenship to all of them.

 

It wasn't just the senate who avoided civil rights for Italians--it was the people of Rome! Everyone who supported Italian rights--T Gracchus, G Gracchus, L Drusus--they were all killed, and they were all abandoned by the people once they publicly supported Italian rights. Blaming the senate is completely unfair.

[Mosquito]

The same they did during social war. First they refused to give Italians roman citisenship, provoked them to bloody war which had devastating results for both Rome and Italy and after victory granted citisenship to all of them.

 

It wasn't just the senate who avoided civil rights for Italians--it was the people of Rome! Everyone who supported Italian rights--T Gracchus, G Gracchus, L Drusus--they were all killed, and they were all abandoned by the people once they publicly supported Italian rights. Blaming the senate is completely unfair.

 

 

If senate and optimates were so wise leaders of Roman state, they should have forseen that their policy leads to catastrophe and should have back the politicians who wanted to support Italians. Italian demands backed by senate would surelly have been supported by Roman assemblies. But no, majority of senate was attacking the reformers and it is the senate or majority of senators to blame for their deaths and all the consequences.

[Gaius Octavius]

The fact is that the Campanian law was a notoriously bad piece of legislation that did nothing for the people at all--and how could it: it dispossessed as many it rewarded. Rather than being a populare move, it was a political spoil for Pompey, pure and simple, and everyone from Clodius to Cicero to Cato to Catulus could see it.

 

In the general words of a 'certain party' (who shall remain unnamed), what 'proof' is there of this equality? Proof, not hear-say. Not the words of the anti-Caesar hacks.

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QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Mar 24 2007, 01:41 AM)

 

Funny that in the 22 years after the Gracchi no fewer than five different agrarian bills were passed. The senate sure was opposed to change, huh?

 

Come now! Five in 22 years! My word! Now, why didn't these 'better' people get it right the first time out, as Caesar should have?

[M. Porcius Cato]

If senate and optimates were so wise leaders of Roman state, they should have forseen that their policy leads to catastrophe and should have back the politicians who wanted to support Italians.

Many senators--including Livius Drusus and his supporters--did foresee this and constantly said as much. But they weren't in the majority, either among populists or optimates. They weren't in the majority simply because they were drawn from the same pool of people with the same prejudices as the popular assemblies that elected them. Expecting the majority of these elected magistrates to take a principled stand against the voters who elected them is optimism bordering on naivete.

[Mosquito]

Many senators--including Livius Drusus and his supporters--did foresee this and constantly said as much. But they weren't in the majority, either among populists or optimates. They weren't in the majority simply because they were drawn from the same pool of people with the same prejudices as the popular assemblies that elected them. Expecting the majority of these elected magistrates to take a principled stand against the voters who elected them is optimism bordering on naivete.

 

Many times they did, many times they didnt care what majority of people think.

 

And social war is only an example. Most of reforms - often good reforms - were enacted against the will of optimates - or by optimates after they have already defeated their enemies.