Greater than thermopylae?

[skel]

Hey everyone! long time no see. been a few years since i was here last, but ill cut to the chase.

 

I am having a discussion with someone (actually hes having it with me...) about ancient battles. It sparked when we were talkin about the new movie 300. He said "its only the greatest military achievement in history!" and i said, "are you sure? theres got to be others just as big or bigger." Well he wont let it go and i thought id have some fun and see if i cant prove to him there is. So can yall give me some battles to look in to? I have honestly forgotten so much about history since high school is sad.

[Ursus]

There is something poetic about thermopylae that speaks about the Greek, or at least Spartan, soul. But objectively speaking all they did was keep the invasion force in check for three days. "Greatest military achievement" seems a trifle overdone.

 

Salamis was a more significant victory for the Greeks.

 

How about Alesia for Caesar as one of history's greats?

[M. Porcius Cato]

Cannae might be the greatest military achievement in the ancient world. Hannibal defeated not only a larger army, but a well-equipped and well-trained one, as well. And he did so by means of a tactical brilliance that remains difficult to replicate to this very day. It was a sad day for Rome, but it was a brilliant victory nonetheless.

[Pantagathus]

Going by battles that I know are still studied in modern military academies you can add Zama (or any of P.C.ScipioA.M.'s) to the list.

 

Personally I like Ilipa and Baecula better; Ilipa for the witty tactics and Baecula for the 'balls'

[Publius Nonius Severus]

I have always been partial to the Battle of Vercellae against the Cimbris as one of the greatest (Aquae Sextiae being a close second). Had Marius and Catulus Caesar been defeated the Cimbri would have had the entire Italian peninsula to themselves with no real force to oppose them (nor too many potential troops to be levied against them either!). Rome and her allies could have very possibly been overrun and wiped from the Earth.

[DecimusCaesar]

Some of Alexander the Great's battles were won with amazing tactics and timing. I would also have to go with MP Cato and say that the Battle of Cannae was an extrodianry victory for the Carthaginians and their allies. Hannibal's tactics were even replicated by the Coalition forces during the First Gulf War in 1991.

 

Outside of the Classical world there have been many several other 'famous last stands' and amazing victories. What about the Battle of Stalingrad in 1942? Perhaps the largest battle in world History (if not the bloodiest, perhaps 2 million killed?)

 

Battle of Stalingrad at Wikipedia

 

What about the defence of Constantinople in 1453, where the Byzantines fought heroically to defend their city against the Ottomans? It surely rates as one of the greatest last stands in history.

 

Fall of Constantinople at Wikipedia

 

There are several other ones as well. In Britain we have our very own 'Thermopylae' in which the men of the Kingdom of Gododdin sent 300 of their greatest warriors to capture Catterick from the Saxons, c. AD 600.

They were considered to be among the greatest warriors on the island, and they spent a year training for the battle. Yet, all but one of them survived to tell the tale, after having fought to the death. The survivor of thr battle was Aneurin, the British poet who recounted the tale.

The story does have many similarities with the Battle of Thermopylae, including the "Heroic " defeat:

 

Y Gododdin at Wikipedia

Edited February 14, 2007 by DecimusCaesar

[Julius Ratus]

I will vote with M. P. Cato on the Cannae being more spectacular than Thermopylae, but there is just something heart-wrenching and poetic about Thermopylae, which is why it is so well remembered to this day.

 

In the modern world, few battles come behind Rourke's Drift in pure bravery. Here one company of Red Coats stand up to 5000 Zulus, one of the most impressive non-European armies of the era, led by two Lieutenants, one an Engineer, the other an unblooded aristocrat, and end up winning.

 

As far as WWII goes, Stalingrad wasn't all that spectacular, though it did highlight the tenacity and bravery of the Soviet citizens and soldiers involved, as well as the leadership of then-commissar Krushchev. I would consider the actions around Prokhorvka in the Kursk Salent to have been the most spectacular battle of WWII, IMHO.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

It depend on how we see things : what is the greatest battle ? For me it must be a gallant fight with large consequences on history. Cannae was not such a battle since ultimately it did nothing to change the situation and Hannibal was defeated due to his shortcomings.

 

Thermopylae on the other hand is a great battle because it allowed the greek fleet's retreat and ultimately Salamine : as such it has all the characteristics of a great battle. But the most important in that fight is either Salamine or Platea since they allowed the survival of the greek culture and mind, and paved the way the the great Pericles' Century.

[Gaius Octavius]

"...with large consequences for history." B.H. above. In addition to Zama, add the battle for Constantinople. It may have determined the fate of the Middle East to this day and into the future. It was also a most gallant battle.

 

Cannae was spectacular, but of little, if any, consequence to history save for bringing Scipio to the fore. The Roman defeat was due more to Rome's practice of having two supreme commanders on alternate days and the pig-headed, incompetent Varro, than to Hannibal's ability. The double envelopment was not invented by Hannibal.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

I will vote with M. P. Cato on the Cannae being more spectacular than Thermopylae, but there is just something heart-wrenching and poetic about Thermopylae, which is why it is so well remembered to this day.

 

In the modern world, few battles come behind Rourke's Drift in pure bravery. Here one company of Red Coats stand up to 5000 Zulus, one of the most impressive non-European armies of the era, led by two Lieutenants, one an Engineer, the other an unblooded aristocrat, and end up winning.

 

As far as WWII goes, Stalingrad wasn't all that spectacular, though it did highlight the tenacity and bravery of the Soviet citizens and soldiers involved, as well as the leadership of then-commissar Krushchev. I would consider the actions around Prokhorvka in the Kursk Salent to have been the most spectacular battle of WWII, IMHO.

Julius, Prokhorovka is one of the most overrated battles in the War. Check out these links:

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.p...sc&start=15

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

what about the Battle of the Metaurus. If Hasdrubal had linked with Hannibal's army in Italy Rome may have had been burned to the ground and had its soil salted instead of Carthage.

[Mosquito]

When it comes to modern battles - the charge of Polish lancers at Somosierra in Spain. Napoleons army was blocked at the mountain passage of Somosierra - similar to Thermopylae. The road was blocked by 4 batteries of artillery and about 10.000 infantry. After few days of trying unsuccesful infantry attacks Napoleon ordered 200 Polish lancers of his Guard a suicide mission - to attack Spanish positions and the lancers cleared pass, took all the canons, caused panic in spanish lines. Most of the Spaniards simply escaped. After the battle about 10 French officers tried to claim that they were leading the charge but in fact it wasnt any of them.

 

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Polish_Guard_Lancers.html

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Somosierra

 

 

Edited March 23, 2007 by Mosquito

[Julius Ratus]

Julius, Prokhorovka is one of the most overrated battles in the War. Check out these links:

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.p...sc&start=15

 

I agree that Kursk was not so big as it is made out to be, but it was the end of the Germans going on the offensive. It was the turning point of WWII. After Stalingrad, the Germans were not stopped. They struck back under Mannstein, trying to relieve Stalingrad, then they took back Kharkov, then they attacked the Kursk Salient. Stalingrad did not end German momentum. Loosing Kursk did.

 

Likewise, the Russians had gone on offensives before in '42. They were stopped. Even after Stalingrad they had setbacks. After winning Kursk they attacked on the Dniepr front and then in '44 launched Operation Bagration, which pounded the last nail in the German coffin.

 

EDIT: Since this is the Historia in Universum, I am not off topic, right? If so, sorry.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Julius Ratus

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

One of the greatest victories in the history of warfare was the German capture of Kiev in 1941. Its really unbelievable how criminal incompetent soviet military leaders were during the German invasion, i guess you can thank stalin for that.

[Gaius Octavius]

One of the greatest victories in the history of warfare was the German capture of Kiev in 1941. Its really unbelievable how criminal incompetent soviet military leaders were during the German invasion, i guess you can thank stalin for that.

 

Then how can it be a 'great' vicyory?