Moslems

[IamJoseph]

I dont mean to offend anyone but how on earth did we get from discussing muslims within the eastern empire to discussing the acts of crusaders and the Jewish people..?

 

I believe these were all responsa to items in posts. However, moslems and jews are certainly not off topic with the subject.

[Primus Pilus]

I dont mean to offend anyone but how on earth did we get from discussing muslims within the eastern empire to discussing the acts of crusaders and the Jewish people..?

 

I believe these were all responsa to items in posts. However, moslems and jews are certainly not off topic with the subject.

 

It is completely off-topic. The topic is the moslems in the eastern empire. Let's drop the zealotry for a minute and focus.

[IamJoseph]

I dont mean to offend anyone but how on earth did we get from discussing muslims within the eastern empire to discussing the acts of crusaders and the Jewish people..?

 

I believe these were all responsa to items in posts. However, moslems and jews are certainly not off topic with the subject.

 

It is completely off-topic. The topic is the moslems in the eastern empire. Let's drop the zealotry for a minute and focus.

 

But there were no muslims in the Roman Empire. Rome fell before islam emerged.

 

Presuming that there were Moslems in the Empire, what is known about them and their status?

[docoflove1974]

But there were no muslims in the Roman Empire. Rome fell before islam emerged.

 

As was mentioned earlier, the entity named as the 'Roman empire' does not necessarily end with the fall of Rome in the 5th century, but extends to include the Byzantine/Roman Empire. In that light, there were indeed muslims in the (eastern) Roman empire.

[IamJoseph]

But there were no muslims in the Roman Empire. Rome fell before islam emerged.

 

As was mentioned earlier, the entity named as the 'Roman empire' does not necessarily end with the fall of Rome in the 5th century, but extends to include the Byzantine/Roman Empire. In that light, there were indeed muslims in the (eastern) Roman empire.

 

 

Ok, so it refers to Roman Christianity, which would have impacted with islam a couple of centuries later. More interesting, is the impact of christianity not in Byrantine, but in Mecca: there is a report there was a Missionary who had close contacts with Mohammed. Anyone hear of this?

[Titus001]

[

[iamjoseph

But there were no muslims in the Roman Empire. Rome fell before islam emerged.

 

How can you say that when Constantine the great in 330AD moved the capital of the roman civilization from Rome the city to Constantinople?I still dont know why people think the Roman civilization fell at 450AD or whatever year it was.Its kind of funny when you think about it b/c when the western side fell and lost Rome the city it was not even the capital of this great civilization.So iamjoeseph you need to get your facts right that the roman civilization fell at 1453.What a long time it lasted=753BC to 1453AD

Edited February 7, 2007 by Titus001

[Kosmo]

So, you think that the impact of christianity on the Roman Empire it's less interesting then that on Islam!

It still has no connection with the thread and it was an interesting thread. If you want to debate other things do it in other threads. This is about muslims in the roman/byzantine empire and I like it that way.

 

An interesting byzantine-muslim realation was that between the Empire of Trapezunt and neighboring turks and mongols.

This included political relations, alliances, protection, marriages, but also extensive trade. They also held parts of Crimeea being in contact with the Golden Horde.

 

"A genuinely friendly alliance with the Muslim potentates seems to have existed between the Comneni and Timur (Tamerlane) who overran Persia and Anatolia at the turn of the 15th century, and the dynasty of the White Sheep who ruled Tabriz and Erzurum later that century. The Great feudal families of the Empire often preferred a Turkish alliance to one with the Italians, and occasionally even to one with their own Greek rulers. In 1311 Alexis II embarked on a joint naval expedition with the Bey of Sinop against Genoese colonies. In 1358 a leader of the

[IamJoseph]

[

[iamjoseph

But there were no muslims in the Roman Empire. Rome fell before islam emerged.

 

How can you say that when Constantine the great in 330AD moved the capital of the roman civilization from Rome the city to Constantinople?I still dont know why people think the Roman civilization fell at 450AD or whatever year it was.Its kind of funny when you think about it b/c when the western side fell and lost Rome the city it was not even the capital of this great civilization.So iamjoeseph you need to get your facts right that the roman civilization fell at 1453.What a long time it lasted=753BC to 1453AD

 

I never mentioned Rome or any Capital city, only that there was no interaction with Islam by Roman empire, but this has been qualified to include christianity.

 

So, you think that the impact of christianity on the Roman Empire it's less interesting then that on Islam!

 

No, nor did I say so. But if your talking muslims and christian interaction, one of the first points would be Mecca.

[Kosmo]

More interesting, is the impact of christianity not in Byrantine, but in Mecca:

 

 

So, you think that the impact of christianity on the Roman Empire it's less interesting then that on Islam!

 

No, nor did I say so.

 

It seems to me you did.

[Honorius]

But there were no muslims in the Roman Empire. Rome fell before islam emerged.

 

As was mentioned earlier, the entity named as the 'Roman empire' does not necessarily end with the fall of Rome in the 5th century, but extends to include the Byzantine/Roman Empire. In that light, there were indeed muslims in the (eastern) Roman empire.

 

 

Ok, so it refers to Roman Christianity, which would have impacted with islam a couple of centuries later. More interesting, is the impact of christianity not in Byrantine, but in Mecca: there is a report there was a Missionary who had close contacts with Mohammed. Anyone hear of this?

 

 

i dont get what you just said.. could u perhaps rephrase it..?

 

Btw the christian kingdom of Axum had contact with mecca i think/...

[Rameses the Great]

Btw the christian kingdom of Axum had contact with mecca i think/...

 

They've always had.

 

there is a report there was a Missionary who had close contacts with Mohammed. Anyone hear of this?

 

Yes, and he had contact with Jews also and had distant cousins who were Jews and Christians. His tribe believed in the Moon God Allah. He decided to create his own religion taking second hand facts from Jews and Christians and creating his own religion.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Rameses the Great

[Primus Pilus]

Just to be clear here... the Roman Empire did not cease to exist in AD 476 (insert whichever date on whichever calendar you prefer), but continued for another millennium. The rise of islam had a very direct impact on the fortunes of this so-called "Byzantine" empire, and is a perfectly reasonable topic of discussion.

[IamJoseph]

Just to be clear here... the Roman Empire did not cease to exist in AD 476 (insert whichever date on whichever calendar you prefer), but continued for another millennium. The rise of islam had a very direct impact on the fortunes of this so-called "Byzantine" empire, and is a perfectly reasonable topic of discussion.

 

This means when Islam emerged, they would have interaction with both the Romans - in descent, and a fairly established sector of christianity - in ascent. The latter would have been in a process of absorbing the former, while also confronting an emerging opposition with Islam, which rejected christianity and was in its own ascent stage. At this time, there were three religions from one, all being mutually exclusive of each other's fulcrum doctrines, an obvious recipe for disaster looming. A retrospectic look at this impossible scenario clarifies what occured, and how this scenario effects the world today. Obviously, all three cannot be right in their doctrines or reportings of history.

 

It seems that Islam's scriptures and doctrines were a response more to christian scriptures, because its names are Latin-based more than the Judaic, eg: Ibrahim, with a 'B' alligns when Abraham, not with the V in the Hebrew Avraham. Also, Judaism was in its worst descent here. The inclusion of Jesus in Islamic scripture also alligns with the christian writings than with the Roman Empire. This says, IMHO, there was an immense interaction between early Islam and Christianity, and that Islam being Middle-eastern, did not accept christian scripture's core beliefs, while it did so of Judaism, possibly because there was the notion Israel was past history. However, both christianity and Islam's variances regarding the OT cannot be both correct - they contradict each other. This says that the interaction of Islam with Christianity emerged before Constantinople and Byzantine Turkey, and that all of the conflicts in this region stem from the disputes between christianity and islam - Judaism being a non-entity for many centuries, and relevent only recently, around '48.

[Maladict]

This means when Islam emerged, they would have interaction with both the Romans - in descent, and a fairly established sector of christianity - in ascent. The latter would have been in a process of absorbing the former, while also confronting an emerging opposition with Islam, which rejected christianity and was in its own ascent stage. At this time, there were three religions from one, all being mutually exclusive of each other's fulcrum doctrines, an obvious recipe for disaster looming. A retrospectic look at this impossible scenario clarifies what occured, and how this scenario effects the world today. Obviously, all three cannot be right in their doctrines or reportings of history.

 

What are you talking about? Three religions? The Roman Empire of the seventh century was thoroughly Christian.

[IamJoseph]

Btw the christian kingdom of Axum had contact with mecca i think/...

 

They've always had.

 

there is a report there was a Missionary who had close contacts with Mohammed. Anyone hear of this?

 

Yes, and he had contact with Jews also and had distant cousins who were Jews and Christians. His tribe believed in the Moon God Allah. He decided to create his own religion taking second hand facts from Jews and Christians and creating his own religion.

 

I cannot see how Islam can report about the past, such as Abraham and Moses, which events occured 2000 years earlier. There was no arabic writings till 350-450 CE, meaning it was quite implausable to have any correct recall of dates, family names and events of that time - save for taking this information from someone or somewhere else, who had historical knowledge by virtue of a written script.

 

The response to such a question is generally vested in belief, namely that this information was derived via revelation and enlightenment, while the Quran remains in contradiction of both Judaism and christianity's scriptures and their versions of revelation and enlightenment. The issue here is, that a 'belief' is countered against historical facts, which is unacceptable from the premise an on the ground fact must transcend a belief, else truth and veracity has no meaning. A belief can only be a counter to another belief, not against historical fact, and also in contradiction of precedent ones from all sectors. IOW, it is unacceptable that one can call a spade as a flower, based on belief.

 

What are you talking about? Three religions? The Roman Empire of the seventh century was thoroughly Christian.

 

Yes, three religions evolved from here, and the osmosis of the roman empire into christianity represents one of those beliefs. Islam is represented by the religion which arose from the Arabs. Christianity did not emerge in a vacuum of itself, but an amalgamation of Judaic and European (Roman & Greek) influences.