Comitia Centuriata

[Pompieus]

Here is a question: What is the consensus on where the Senators voted in the "comitia centuriata"? Gelzer says that a Senator practically required at least the equestrian census to be active politically (there was apparently no Senatorial census requirement until Augustus); did the Senators vote in the equestrian centuries (those 18 centuries of men who held the "equo publico")? Or were the Senators excluded from the equestrian centuries and thus voted in the Ist Class?

 

In 123BC the "lex Sempronia" of G Gracchus specified that "judices" (jurors) would be selected from voters of the equestrian census (400,000A). (Plut C Gracc 5, App BC i 22, Tac Ann xii 60).

In 105BC the "lex Servilia repetundarum" specified judices needed equipment or census of an equestrian, could NOT be a Senator, and must be 30-60 yrs old.

 

Did the Senators vote in the equestrian centuries until 123 (lex Sempronia), then in the Ist class? There appear to be several examples of Senators holding the public horse before 123 (M Livius Salinator, Ti Claudius Nero, L Cornelius Scipio (Livy xxix.37, xxxix.44) but none later. Did an equites give up his horse (and his place in the equestrian century) when he became a senior at age 46 (Poly vi, 19)? When he entered the Senate? Were the Senators' sons registered in the equestrian centuries before they entered the Senate? Pompey, the son of a Senator, certainly held the public horse (Plut Pomp 22).

 

For that matter, where did the classic equestrians (the wealthy bankers and businessmen who chose to avoid politics) vote? Was there room for them all in the 18 centuries of equites who held the public horse? or were they filled up with Senators and the sons of Senators?

[Caesar CXXXVII]

About the Equites , a great book (not successful name) - The Roman Middle Class in the Republican Period

by H. Hill; Greenwood Press, 1974

 

Again I say , great book that answer any question about the Equites .

[Publius Nonius Severus]

I was looking into a very similar topic just a couple of weeks ago so maybe I can add some insight. There are very few, if any, ancient sources on what the exact property qualifications were for Senators in the republican era.

 

According to Livy, the was a minimum wealth required to be inthe first class was 100,000 asses (250,0000 sesterces). (Ab Urbe Condita, I.43). The first class made up the first 98 centuries (i.e. the majority). In his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, p. 1018, William Smith states: "..we may safely take it for granted that during the whole of the republican period no such census existed (Plin. H.N. XIV.1), although senators naturally always belonged to the wealthiest classes."

 

We do have evidence that Augustus established (and later increased, twice) the qualification levels for senators. First at 400,000 sesterces, then 800,000, and then at either 1,000,000 or 1,200,000 (depending on the source). This is documented in The Life of Augustus, 41 by Seutonius and Roman History by Cassius Dio, liv. and lv. . All of these levels are well above the minimum required for the first class. But, there is no source that I can find that demonstrably shows such levels existed for Senators during the Republic.

 

There are some sources hinting at possible qualification levels, but nothing very definite. I'd be happy to share them if anyone is interested.

 

I would say that it would be surprising not to find both equites and senators in the first class. If I were a censor and was entering applicants into the Senatorial or Equestrian census, I don't think I would have accepted someone from anything lower than the first class unless their dignitas was impeccable and then nevery below the second class.

 

-Severus

[Gaius Octavius]

There are some sources hinting at possible qualification levels, but nothing very definite. I'd be happy to share them if anyone is interested.

-Severus

 

Please do, and welcome aboard.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Thanks for the welcome Octavius!

 

 

Okay...additional sources. I found both of these from Smith's article for Senatus.

 

As I said before, sources in support of a republican-era senatorial census (minimum property qualification) vague. Here is the first:

 

Ab Urbe Condita, xxiv. 11:

 

"...As there was a deficiency of sailors, the consuls, acting upon the instructions of the senate, published an order to meet the case. Every one who had been assessed or whose father had been assessed in the censorship of L. Aemilius and C. Flaminius at from 50,000 to 100,000 ases or whose property had since reached that amount, was to furnish one sailor with six months' pay; those whose assessment was from 100,000 to 300,000 were to supply three sailors with twelve months' pay; from 300,000 to 1,000,000 the contribution was to be five sailors, and above that amount seven. The senators were to furnish eight sailors and a year's pay..."

 

My interpretation of this cite is that if someone was worth more than 1,000,000 asses they had to provide seven sailors and a Senator had to provide eight, then the passage "implies" that a senator had to be worth more than 1,000,0000 asses (2,500,000 sesterces - unless my math is off or the value of money changed) since all of the previous requirements were wealth-based. However, I think this may be an incorrect inference. The reason why senators may have had to provide more sailors is because as conscript fathers, they had a larger stake in the defense of the republic. Additionally, unless of course my math or valuation is wrong, 2,500,000 sesterces is far higher than the qualification that even Augustus set for senators many decades later which seems to further reduce the inferred relevance of minimum required wealth and senatorial status (unless of course Augustus was initially trying to make it easier to join the ranks of senators and thereby reduced the requirements).

 

There is also a cite from Cicero's Letters Ad Familiares, xiii. 5. that is also vague but implies Caesar actually established a senatorial census:

 

 

[Pompieus]

Thanks for the welcome Octavius!

 

 

Okay...additional sources. I found both of these from Smith's article for Senatus.

 

As I said before, sources in support of a republican-era senatorial census (minimum property qualification) vague. Here is the first:

 

Ab Urbe Condita, xxiv. 11:

 

"...As there was a deficiency of sailors, the consuls, acting upon the instructions of the senate, published an order to meet the case. Every one who had been assessed or whose father had been assessed in the censorship of L. Aemilius and C. Flaminius at from 50,000 to 100,000 ases or whose property had since reached that amount, was to furnish one sailor with six months' pay; those whose assessment was from 100,000 to 300,000 were to supply three sailors with twelve months' pay; from 300,000 to 1,000,000 the contribution was to be five sailors, and above that amount seven. The senators were to furnish eight sailors and a year's pay..."

 

My interpretation of this cite is that if someone was worth more than 1,000,000 asses they had to provide seven sailors and a Senator had to provide eight, then the passage "implies" that a senator had to be worth more than 1,000,0000 asses (2,500,000 sesterces - unless my math is off or the value of money changed) since all of the previous requirements were wealth-based. However, I think this may be an incorrect inference. The reason why senators may have had to provide more sailors is because as conscript fathers, they had a larger stake in the defense of the republic. Additionally, unless of course my math or valuation is wrong, 2,500,000 sesterces is far higher than the qualification that even Augustus set for senators many decades later which seems to further reduce the inferred relevance of minimum required wealth and senatorial status (unless of course Augustus was initially trying to make it easier to join the ranks of senators and thereby reduced the requirements).

 

There is also a cite from Cicero's Letters Ad Familiares, xiii. 5. that is also vague but implies Caesar actually established a senatorial census: