Opinions on Cicero

[Adelais Valerius]

With Cicero's generally republican mindset, and wanting to save the republic, it seems that he should have gravitated toward the senate's side, and not have taken Caesar's side at all.

 

Recall that Cicero was forced into exile until Cicero and his many friends managed to get the Caesar/Clodius boot off Cicero's neck. An experience like that tends to be intimidating, don't you think?

 

I feel that Cicero should have stood up for what he believes in right. Though Caesar would be QUITE intimidating, reading some of his speeches, you get a sense of confidence(maybe thats the acting coming in that as Caldrail stated), and yet he came crawling back to Caesar after Pompey was defeated? It just seems in some instances that Cicero's courage was also sometimes an act. That he protrayed something that he didn't have. Maybe I'm simply misunderstanding also

[theilian]

No, what I mean is that Cicero should have accepted the fact of the Republic dying. Whether it be by Caesar or someone else. The republic was having death throes. I'm not saying that the principate was inevitable, but what was inevitable was the faltering of the republic.

 

Furthermore, whether Cicero opposed Antony or not, there would have been civil war. By then, the damage had been done. I don't think Cicero was a cause of the civil war, but it didn't help matters with him trying to use Octavian against him. I think that his motives were good, but he way underestimated the saavy nad personal ambition of Octavian.

Actually one might argue that he accepted the death of Republic after Caesar's victory and not to his credit in many people's view. In fact, he has been complaining that Republic was dying ever since first triumvirate. But when a chance seemed to appear with Caesar's death, he took it.

There is no evidence that anyone else (including Caesar) had any deeper insight into socio-economic and political problems that Rome faced. IMHO, Principate was simply a result of naked power struggle among individuals.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Actually one might argue that he accepted the death of Republic after Caesar's victory and not to his credit in many people's view. In fact, he has been complaining that Republic was dying ever since first triumvirate. But when a chance seemed to appear with Caesar's death, he took it.

There is no evidence that anyone else (including Caesar) had any deeper insight into socio-economic and political problems that Rome faced. IMHO, Principate was simply a result of naked power struggle among individuals.

 

As much as I agree that the Principate was the result of a naked power struggle (or, rather, the exhaustion of the people and senate with those struggles), I don't recall Cicero ever complaining about the Republic "dying"--or any other words to that effect--especially as early as the first triumvirate. Since you've been doing such a great job compiling Cicero's letters, can you find where Cicero lodged this complaint?

 

I'm somewhat skeptical because I thought the first written acknowledgment that the republic was finished came from Tacitus. Otherwise, the only one who really recognized the mortal danger posed by the triumvirate in 59 was Cato. Even Varro's famous quip that it was a "three-headed monster" came later. Moreover, the most widespread view at the time was that the danger to the republic came from the enmity between Pompey and Caesar, not their friendship.

[theilian]

I don't recall Cicero ever complaining about the Republic "dying"--or any other words to that effect--especially as early as the first triumvirate.

 

I'm somewhat skeptical because I thought the first written acknowledgment that the republic was finished came from Tacitus. Otherwise, the only one who really recognized the mortal danger posed by the triumvirate in 59 was Cato. Even Varro's famous quip that it was a "three-headed monster" came later. Moreover, the most widespread view at the time was that the danger to the republic came from the enmity between Pompey and Caesar, not their friendship.

 

Jan. 60 BC

They are such fools that they seem to expect that, though the Republic is lost, their fish-ponds will be safe. There is one man who does take some trouble, but rather, as it seems to me, with more resolution and integrity than with either prudence or intelligence: Cato.

 

July 59 BC

Why should I write to you on the Republic in detail? It is utterly ruined; and is, so far, in a worse state than when you left it, that then a despotism seemed to be oppressing it which was popular with the multitude, and though offensive to the loyalists, yet short of actual mischief; but now all on a sudden they have become so universally hated, that I tremble to think what will be the end of it. For we have had experience of those men's resentment and violence, who have ruined everything in their anger against Cato; yet they were employing such slow poisons, that it seemed as though our end might be painless. Now, however, I fear they have been exasperated by the hisses of the crowd, the talk of the respectable classes, and the murmurs of Italy. For my part, I was in hopes, as I often used actually to say to you, that the wheel of the state chariot had made its revolution with scarcely any noise and leaving scarcely any visible rut; and it would have been so, if people could only have waited till the storm had blown over.

 

54 BC

... Nay, fly hither and look at the empty husks of the real old Roman Republic we used to know. For example, come and see money distributed before the elections tribe by tribe, all in one place openly, see Gabinius acquitted, get the smell of Dictatorship in your nostrils, enjoy the public holiday and the universal free-for-all, behold my equanimity, my amusement, my contempt for Selicius'[1] 10%, and, yes, my delectable rapprochement with Caesar.

 

 

But the problem with Cicero is that he seems to be open to various interpretationd of events and often persuade himself to see in certain ways, which I think leads him to inconsistencies and gives him reputation for time-serving. So Pompey and later even Caesar are despots destroying the repubilc at one time, but something else at another time.

Also although he complains often enough about dying Republic, but still thinks that worst things might pass if general constitution (even if just a shadow of it) remains and there is personnel change, so to speak.

What he feared more than anything else though and very consistently was that violent turmoils such as war or Sulla-Marius type of violence would definitely kill the Republic, which turned out to be right.

Edited April 9, 2007 by theilian

[M. Porcius Cato]

Very nice work, Ilian. Thanks so much for those excerpts.

 

The first one, however, seems to talk about the loss of the republic merely as a hypothetical: that is, the fish-ponders (Cicero's favorite term of abuse for rich sinecures) care about nothing but their own garden. Which probably wasn't far off for many Epicureans--Lucretius had advised as much--but the idea would have been anathema to the Stoic that Cicero praised.

 

The second letter supports your idea much more. Though look at how disappointed Cicero is in the triumvirs--as if he really had expected normalcy! "For my part, I was in hopes, as I often used actually to say to you, that the wheel of the state chariot had made its revolution with scarcely any noise and leaving scarcely any visible rut". Cicero could be a damned fool--he should have listened to Cato earlier. In any case, by 54, the worst effects of the triumivrate were laid bare for everyone to see.

[cornelius_sulla]

Need further proof? Read Cicero himself. Contrast his private letters to his public speeches etc. Cicero was not only novus homo, but also one that for all his formidable talent as an advocate lacked and even avoided any activity that involved holding a sword and shield. It was pre requisite that he be adept at eloquent weaseling as the major weapon at his disposal was manipulation with tongue and pen.

There is no doubt that Cicero was a patriot. But the way that he prates on indignantly after his consulship and Catiline etc about being the savior of his country points to some esteem issues. He'd been to the top and still was not taken seriously.