Speaking With the Gods

[Lost_Warrior]

In today's society, most of the people claiming to be able to speak with the gods are considered crazy, at best. But in Rome's polytheistic society, was it the same way? I would think that with a religion which believed in gods influencing every part of life, it would be OK, if not normal for someone to be able to contact them (societally speaking. I of course, think it's perfectly normal even today )

 

What happened to someone who seemed to have a closer connection to the gods than most? Did they become priests? Or loonies prophesizing in the streets? Did some become priests and some become loonies? (Of course, some became Imperators )

[CiceroD]

Well of course "Portents" were always very important. Dreams came from the Gods as was illustrated in the Illiad

Of course we know that they took the Auspices and Haruspices

 

Sibyls of course were vessels through which the Gods could speak. however I dont know that they themseves really spoke to the Gods. If we take the Pythia of Delphi as an example she would drool and go into a frenzy and mutter gibberish that would then be "interpreted" by a priest.

The Romans certainly must have believed this Greek convention or else why would they have put so much faith behind the Sibylline Books?

 

But did they consider their Sibyls to be Insane?

good question!

 

As for any Joe Schmo who said that they spoke to the Gods, I would think that would raise eyebrows. Theyd think somthing to the effect of "well why does Apollo speak to you of all people?"

The Romans and the Greeks were very Ritualistic people. and to go against the elaborate systems set up by Augurs and Haruspices would seem innapropriate.

 

In short I think they wouldnt have written someone of as a looney necessarily but thaey would have been suspicious

[Segestan]

Well my view: The Super natural , those acts that had dominated human affairs in those times, those events were Not so uncommon in those days, that those who claimed a direct path to the ' Gods' was simply dismissed. It was expected that some would be agents of Human destiny...aka.. Sybil , Augur etc... Everything, in the material world, of finite construction, whether it be a man, a beast , a tree or a rock ,was thought , by the ancients, to be in possession of a soul. No place on earth was void of the spirit world. Man lived his life within the spirit realm. Those who had gained a genuine knowledge of events to come as of a Prophecy; some most likely had a predestination written in the Book of Life , that is the collective human drama, included a personal place for them that was very public. . Some where chosen randomly by the spirit world to represent destiny or prophecy, to aid in the workings of the human adventure.. Angels , the agents of Goodwill, came into the finite world and randomly seeked out willing agents of human destiny. Many angels entered as children themselves, though ages old, they often distributed their Goodwill acts to others as they are still children also. A Destiny , as a gift , is most often attained in the early years. A child to child conversation is often the most common form of predestination planning. The young only speak from the heart.

As for persons who spoke of knowledge of worldly events , these persons were . unlike today, judged by their fellows with a sense of expectation. Some Roman Emperors after becoming inflicted , suffering terrible diseases, due to thier persecutions tried to appease God for mercy , only to find it to late. The fall of the Pagan and the rise of the Christian was no accident in the acts of the Gods. Destiny of self and others is the Soul purpose of the collective human drama.

 

regards,

[Lost_Warrior]

I would definitely think that they would be suspicious. Alot of people (as I mentioned before, Imperators especially) used a "relationship with the gods" as a way to gain politically. Usually, though, it was after they were already in power that they did this. (We see this today even). Wanting to be seen as having a "divine right" to rule, or a "divine mission".

 

I don't know how many everyday people would go around claiming a close personal relationship with the gods though. My guess is, not too many (are there any historical records of this sort of thing?)

[caldrail]

Ordinary people are... well... ordinary.... Why would a god speak with such worthless scum? On the other hand, someone who has wealth and power on a seemingly unlimited scale is of a different class altogether. Somebody 'special' dare I say?

 

My point of course is that ego has a lot to do with it, as well as perception of another persons status. Now the romans as a whole were a very superstitious bunch. There's a set of caves somewhere in either greece or italy (I can't remember where) which were used in ancient times to extract cash from the innocent by setting up a visit to the 'underworld'. Obviously not all romans were superstitious and some were absolutely criminal in their exploitation of religious needs. We see the same thing in early christianity, where get-rich-quick bishops founded individual cults where they could control the flock more easily.

 

Usually a person claiming to hear messages from the gods might be treated with some circumspection, as such communication normally drives one mad apparently. No suprise there!

 

However - regardless of social rank or the weight of ones purse, if anyone of sufficient bravura/charisma/oratorical ability stood up and spoke about it, sooner or later they'll accumulate listeners. Jesus did exactly that after all. Its a risky move though. many people around won't believe your message, they will be suspicious of your motives, they may be envious that you were 'chosen', or simply insulted that some god spoke to you and not the divine emperor.

[Andrew Dalby]

Ordinary people are... well... ordinary.... Why would a god speak with such worthless scum? On the other hand, someone who has wealth and power on a seemingly unlimited scale is of a different class altogether. Somebody 'special' dare I say?

 

My point of course is that ego has a lot to do with it, as well as perception of another persons status ...

 

"Why would a god speak with such worthless scum?" It's a challenging point, but I can't think of evidence that ancient people reacted with words like those! It sounds a very modern reaction to me.

 

If you read ancient historical writers -- the ones who actually report omens, divine messages, and what not, as many do -- you'll find that some seem to believe it, some don't, but they don't generally say "that's the wrong kind of person to receive the message". Slaves and prostitutes and other widely-despised groups could worship, sacrifice etc., and no one told them not to. It was indeed sometimes the very lowly people (sons of carpenters, would that be another example?!) who got the most important messages.

[Pertinax]

A couple of thoughts. The Sybil falls into the category of "Professional" seer , the utterances being produced by an established "career analyst" via a process of narcotic enhancement ( be it laurel leaf or distillate/beverage). Nowadays a range of people might fulfill this task in different cultural ecosystems ( shaman, psychotherapist, priest, charismatic tribal leader). The Sybil is a definite , sacred , direct (if you ignore the term "sybelline") routing of the Divine into the physical world.

The Catholic Church seems to have quite a range of "ordinary" persons , over many years ,afflicted with visions/stigmata which have been interpreted (or projected ) as being of profound religious significance, indeed the "dullness" of the recipient of this "gift" seems to be a significant factor in the establishment of bona fides in the popular eye.Perhaps we should conjecture on the role of Messianic "end time" religious behaviour versus the Gods as guiding/influencing powers with a possible direct input into a persons life and there expectations.In this instance the subject is a sort of accidental channel for a greater power that is difficult to interpret , and uncomfortable for an established religious hierarchy to assimilate.

[Lost_Warrior]

It makes sense for an Emporer or such to claim that the gods spoke to/through him, but for everyone to quietly (to themselves of course) be thinking "Oh, he's just saying these things because he's the Emporer". Was a more "lowly" type more likely to be believed than one who had an obvious agenda?

[caldrail]

Status in modern eyes isn't the same as back then. Particularly in roman culture where they were acutely sensitive to it. Can you really assume that a slave would receive attention after claiming he had a message from the gods? Whether or not someone gets listened to initially depends on the persons demeanour and personal qualities. Whether he gets believed depends on his charisma. Whether he is allowed to tell anyone depends on his status. That was even more true then.

 

These days any tom dick or harry gets their five minutes in the spotlight for any excuse. The modern media encourages this because its business, and usually they present these odd individuals in a manner that amuses the rest of us. Back then, such an individual might be seen very differently. True the public might still laugh at him, but if you're the local governor of the province and word reaches you of some rural farmer who's wandering around telling everyone about messages from the gods, wouldn't you want to know want the heck is going on?

 

For the common person, an emperor has an aura of power. The emperor can order armies to move, he can order great works to be constructed, he can decide life or death at a whim. Now whilst he may seem to be an ordinary person as such that ruler nonetheless has power and influence the ordinary man does not and can never have. There is a very real difference in the perception of these two individuals.

 

Of course some people sneered. The Emperor? Who's he trying to kid? But because the personal charisma of a man with such power is likely to impress the average man on street (not always as some emperors found out somewhat painfully!) he is more likely to be believed. Why else do dictators tell such absolute whoppers to their public and get believed?

[Lost_Warrior]

I had always thought that dictators were "believed" because everyone was afraid to do otherwise; you do have a point though.

 

Especially when we bring the cult of the State into it.

[Zeke]

I had always thought that dictators were "believed" because everyone was afraid to do otherwise

 

Or their just too stupid do other wise. :smartass:

 

I think in the case of the average Roman plebian...they were so illiterate and intune with the simpiler things in life (like getting enough to eat, or finding a sutiable partner) that they didn't have time to be afraid.

 

This same principal can be applied to the religions of the Roman Empire...I don't think the average person had the time to try to figure out if a person "really spoke to the gods" all that an average person cared about was making sure that whatever god did exist was appeased so that their insignifagant 40 lifespan would last a little longer.

 

Us Modern folk put the label "crazy" on everything...because we want to put the blame on everyone else so we don't appear crazy ourselfs. If we really had a life...then we wouldn't be worrying about other people.

 

Let's open our minds to the supernatural and believe in our immaginations, Nympths, Saytrs and other Forest folk the haunt the by-ways of the Italian landscape....or I am just crazy?

 

The point is the people had other worries then to care about a few Priests wandering the streets of Rome going "Jupiter is cursing us!"

Nowadays we just have way too much time on ours hands...and thats the reasons why real dangerous cults our formed...(Cough cough Jim Jones, physco, cough cough

[Lost_Warrior]

Us Modern folk put the label "crazy" on everything...because we want to put the blame on everyone else so we don't appear crazy ourselfs. If we really had a life...then we wouldn't be worrying about other people.

 

It's you *normal* people who are crazy. Us crazy folks are just fine.

 

Let's open our minds to the supernatural and believe in our immaginations, Nympths, Saytrs and other Forest folk the haunt the by-ways of the Italian landscape....or I am just crazy?

 

You mean they don't?

 

The point is the people had other worries then to care about a few Priests wandering the streets of Rome going "Jupiter is cursing us!"

Nowadays we just have way too much time on ours hands...and thats the reasons why real dangerous cults our formed...(Cough cough Jim Jones, physco, cough cough

 

That is a very good point. I hadn't thought about that. We need to remember to think about these things in context...we've way to much time on our hands so we come up with all kinds of strange ideas and things to occupy ourselves.

[Gaius Octavius]

I'm not so convinced that the Romans (particularly, the elites) believed so much as they wished to be seen as believers. This tends to keep the deck stacked properly. I feel that the elites had a philosophic, rather than a religious bent.

[Ursus]

It makes sense for an Emporer or such to claim that the gods spoke to/through him, but for everyone to quietly (to themselves of course) be thinking "Oh, he's just saying these things because he's the Emporer". Was a more "lowly" type more likely to be believed than one who had an obvious agenda?

 

 

Every family had its "patron" deities - deities whom they especially revered and under whose protection and guidance they placed themselves. Anyone could claim to have a dream or sign or omen from a god saying such and such.

 

But if the butcher down the street claims his patron came to him in his dreams, does anyone except the butcher's family and his close friends really care? Does it make history and the official annals of the state? Not likely.

 

If however the resident dictator for life claims a relationship with Venus, people are going to take more notice. If the reigning princeps claims Apollo as a patron, people are going to take more notice. If some general or another ends up on the right side of the civil war and claims "the invincible sun" had a hand in his success, people are going to take notice (especially if it becomes an official state cult).

 

GO is right to say some educated people prefered the mandates of Hellenistic philosophy to personal gods. But nonetheless a lot of other people in the educated circles still professed a belief in personal gods.

 

 

One thing I must say though is that a life changing vision from a god was a rare thing for the common person. There were only a few off-color cults like that of Pythagoras who claimed to have unlimited mystical access to deities and daemons. They were considered outside of the mainstream (to put it diplomatically). But scholarship often obsesses with these mystics and philosopher-mystics and gives them a level of importance out of all proportion to the status they actually held in the Ancient World.

[Lost_Warrior]

Exactly. I also don't think that most lower class people are going to say if they actually *do* have a mystical experience-outside of their family or their religious group. An emperor is likely to say so because it gives him a reputation of power...but your average person has nothing to gain from the publicity, and more important things to worry about.