M. Porcius Cato Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Several questions answered this episode: (1) Marcus Agrippa will be in the series, (2) Vorenus' children were not (permanently) dumped in the Tiber, and (3) Cicero just can't catch a break with the writers. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia C Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) I was expecting Octavian to fall victim to asthma during the whole brawl with Antonius. I was at the edge of my seat and was almost crying when Antonius was choking the poor kid. Poor little C Edited January 22, 2007 by Julia C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 [quote name='Julia C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Ratus Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Primus Pilus -- What was the relevance of the guy being beaten in the street as Antony left Atia's house? Was this simply to show Antony's indifference or was he supposed to be someone of semi-importance. I was terrified that he would somehow turn out to be Agrippa, but fortunately that was not the case. Notice how the slave showed more interest in the kid after he made his offer... Primus Pilus -- Was Cleopatra the same actress from season 1? She seemed different somehow... perhaps it was simply the hair? Strange that she seemed not to know who Antonius was... an obviously prominent Caesarian while Cleopatra was living outside Rome before Caesar's death... but immediately recognized Pullo, a cast-off she used for personal pleasure for a few fleeting moments. Perhaps this was the fear that Caesarion is actually Pullo's son. I'm pretty sure that the Cleopatras are the same. The nose is quite distinctive. I think that they are going for the Caesarion = Pullo's son thing. Remember at the dinner party Atia says, "Looks nothing like him" refering to Caesarion not looking like Caesar. M. Porcius Cato -- Several questions answered this episode: (1) Marcus Agrippa will be in the series, (2) Vorenus' children were not (permanently) dumped in the Tiber, and (3) Cicero just can't catch a break with the writers. 1. Thank God 2. "" 3. I was kind of hoping for a stronger, and preferably older Cicero. He is such a wiesel in this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I had many of the same thoughts as PP (e.g., expecting Cicero to represent Octavian, fearing the beaten boy would turn out to be Agrippa, etc). In the historical sub-plots, though, there were a couple of bright spots IMO. Cicero appeared to be getting fed up with Antony, and he even showed a modicum of vertebrae in this episode (i.e., refusing to endorse Antony's slate of candidates wholesale), giving me the faintest hope we'll see a sliver of one of Cicero's famous Phillipics. Also, the dark princeling Octavian showed some real mettle: in the catfight with Antony and Atia, it looked like the Sphinx had real claws. Perhaps we'll see more of his less bookish tendencies before his (short-lived) reconciliation with that thug Antony? In other sub-plots, Gaia was introduced in this episode and is slated to appear again in Phillipi (2x06); Vorenus made the startling claim to be a son of Hades, a contention that his presumably living parents might dispute; and Pullo seems to be concerned with Vorenus' dark turn, a point discussed here by historical consultant Jonathan Stamp. The intersection of the two sub-plots, where Antony met Vorenus, left me scratching my head. Antony tells Vorenus that no man is beyond redemption. Sounds like a Christian idea to me. Can anyone think of any tales of redemption from the pre-Christian era? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Ratus Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 If there are any religion experts present, was Hades really considered to be that dark of a god? I had always thought that the man down under being evil was more of a later addition. It seems natural that Pullo would be troubled by Vorenus' sacrilage, as my Proffessor explained, when the gods stike people down they don't care about collateral damage. It would seem that Olympus lacks a hyperactive media . Most people tried to avoid those guilty of hubris and sacrilage for reasons of self-preservation. As far as Antony saying that no man was beyond redemtion goes, I think he was using it as a sale pitch to keep Vorenus, a potential ally, in the game. He had already said that Vorenus should have done his duty "and opened his stomache", so he shows the belief that suicide was the proper end for thos who have been shamed. When he noticed that Vorenus still took his oath of loyalty seriously, Marcus knew that he needed Vorenus to snap out of it so he offered him the one thing that he truely wanted: redemption. My two denarii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasminia Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Antony tells Vorenus that no man is beyond redemption. Sounds like a Christian idea to me. Can anyone think of any tales of redemption from the pre-Christian era? Redemption, salvation, or some form of immortality is a resonant theme with the mystery cults. For example, the Eleusinian, Orphic, Cybele and Isis mysteries (and later, Mithras), all had such notions. Though scholars pedantically argue about the (dis)similarities between the Christian and pagan conceptualizations, the bottom line is that the contemporary followers believed themselves to be saved in one way or another. The term 'redemption' is often used as a social as well as personal 'saving', which seems to be the case for Vorenus. His 'ascent' to overlord, thereby restoring leadership to the collegia and stabilizing the Aventine, redeems his actions which resulted in Caesar's assassination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Ratus Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 I wonder if the show will ever make mention of where Octavian got the legion from. Didn't he get it by stealing it from Lepidus (or maybe Antony) by invocing the name of Caesar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 I wonder if the show will ever make mention of where Octavian got the legion from. Didn't he get it by stealing it from Lepidus (or maybe Antony) by invocing the name of Caesar? His initial force was largely raised from Caesar's retired veterans in Italy. Later, a couple of Antony's legions did defect to Octavian as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Someone help me... despite listening several times, I cannot make-out what Atia says when she whispers into Cleopatra's ear. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Harriman Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 According to the New Yorker review linked by M. Porcius Cato, she says "Die screaming, you pig-spawned trollop." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 According to the New Yorker review linked by M. Porcius Cato, she says "Die screaming, you pig-spawned trollop." Thanks for that, my wife and I were perplexed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plautus Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Thanks also, we wondered as well what she was saying. When Cleopatra said she did not recall Anthony, I think she was doing it as part of their power game of belittling one another. She feigned ignorance of his importance and he treated her as a petty subject monarch. We met several new characters. The veteran who joins Vorenus and Pullos Collegia, the sexy madame and the slave being beaten up who makes an offer to Atias slave Castor. I suspect he is a spy to be planted in her household by someone- Servilla? Great episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 We met several new characters. The veteran who joins Vorenus and Pullos Collegia, the sexy madame and the slave being beaten up who makes an offer to Atias slave Castor. I suspect he is a spy to be planted in her household by someone- Servilla? Isn't the veteran the same captain whom Vorenus bribed/threatened on behalf of that 'friend' of every soldier, Gaius Julius Caesar? Also, I think you're right about the slave being a potential instrument of Servilia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I also found the introduction of Timon's (Atia's Jewish mercenary) brother to be a bit puzzling. He had always been a rather interesting, yet quite secondary character, but he appears to be getting his own sub plot line. I just can't help but think that all of these subtleties add up to plans for more than 2 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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