Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 They say that only Patricians could become Consuls (actualy Praetors) in the first years of the Republic . Well , we find consuls with "Plebeian" names ! They say that the Etruscans were expelled from Rome at the end of the tyrany "the end of Etruscan rule in Rome". Well , we find Etruscan and even Tarquinian names ! They say that from the beggining there were 2 Consuls (Praetors) , so what about the "Praetor Maximus" that the sources refer to ? Any thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Well , we find Etruscan and even Tarquinian names ! Where did you find them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Well , we find Etruscan and even Tarquinian names ! Where did you find them? In the Fasti Consulares - examples - Var. 509 Lucius Iunius Brutus (a son of Tarquinia) and Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus Var. 506 Spurius Larcius Rufus (Flavus?) and Titus Herminius Aquilinus Var. 505 Publius Postumius Tubertus and again in 503 Var. 501 Titus Larcius Flavus (Rufus?) Var. 496 Aulus Postumius Albus And on "...between 490 and 463...we have these Etruscan consuls and interrexes...: Aquilius Tuscus (cos. 487) some Verginii..." Etc' Robert E.A. palmer , univercity of Pennsylvania , American Journal of Archeology , 1975 . The notion is generally accepted . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 They say that the Etruscans were expelled from Rome at the end of the tyrany Who says that? I don`t know about Etruscans, according to ancient sources (Livius, Plutarch and Dionysius) all relatives of king Tarquinius were expelled, not all Etruscans. Var. 509 Lucius Iunius Brutus (a son of Tarquinia) and Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus That`s why Tarquinius Collatinus abdicated the title of consul and left Rome, and he was replaced by suffectus Valerius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 That`s why Tarquinius Collatinus abdicated the title of consul and left Rome, and he was replaced by suffectus Valerius. You have so much a confidence in the ancient sources . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Forsythe discusses these issues quite sufficiently in A Critical History of Early Rome, I just can't remember off the top of my head what his explainations were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Forsythe discusses these issues quite sufficiently in A Critical History of Early Rome, I just can't remember off the top of my head what his explainations were... Thanks . Is there a review ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 You have so much a confidence in the ancient sources . And do you have any other sources of information about early Roman history? Maybe inscriptions or papyri? Or even coins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 You have so much a confidence in the ancient sources .And do you have any other sources of information about early Roman history? Maybe inscriptions or papyri? Or even coins? Huh? The consular fasti were inscriptions. Take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 You have so much a confidence in the ancient sources . And do you have any other sources of information about early Roman history? Maybe inscriptions or papyri? Or even coins? indeed . Some examples About the evidence - the Curia Hostilia was attributed (by Livius and Dyonisius) to Tulus Hostilius . The Archeologists dated this building to the Middle of the 6th century . The Regia was attributed (by Livius and other ancients) to Numa Pompilius . the Archeologists dated this building to the beginning of the 6th century or to the last years of the 7th . The famous painting from Vulci about the Vipinas brothers (6 th century) , the Gabii treaty (late 6th century) , the inscription about popilius Valesius (late 6th century) , Emperor Claudius speech about Mastrana (in Tacitus annales and inscription in Leon Gaul) , the leftovers of some kind of wall North of Rome dated by Archeologists to the Middle of the 6th century (the Servian wall) and on and on Livy and Dyon' of Halic' made for us the basis for our knowledge about early Rome , not the history of it . The Method has to be a combination of materials . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Some examples About the evidence - the Curia Hostilia was attributed (by Livius and Dyonisius) to Tulus Hostilius . The Archeologists dated this building to the Middle of the 6th century . The Regia was attributed (by Livius and other ancients) to Numa Pompilius . the Archeologists dated this building to the beginning of the 6th century or to the last years of the 7th So what? That means that Numa or other kings didn`t build that? Or maybe each of them just didn`t rule 50 years? The famous painting from Vulci about the Vipinas brothers (6 th century) , the Gabii treaty (late 6th century) , the inscription about popilius Valesius (late 6th century) Would you give some refferences about all these things? Emperor Claudius speech about Mastrana (in Tacitus annales and inscription in Leon Gaul) Claudius? I AD century emperor? Why do you think Tacitus is better than Livius` narratives. The Method has to be a combination of materials . But your information about Etruscan exile seems not to be based on any kind of sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 So what? That means that Numa or other kings didn`t build that? Or maybe each of them just didn`t rule 50 years? What "so what?" , you asked for evidence other than livy so I gave you . Would you give some refferences about all these things? So , you don't know about the famous painting and "all these" ? Read about it in every book about early rome and Latium ! Claudius? I AD century emperor? Why do you think Tacitus is better than Livius` narratives. An inscription ! Again I say - Inscription that confirms Tacitus words about Claudius (wrote a history on the Etruscans) speech in the Senate on Mastarna and the Vipinas brothers who were painted on a tumb in Vulci ! This paint confirms the Etruscan tradition about them . Now did Livy wrote about them ? No ! Did livy spoke about Porsenna's occupation of Rome ? No . But all scholars do ! But your information about Etruscan exile seems not to be based on any kind of sources. Hanell, Gjerstad, Werner, De Martino, Rosenberg and others , all of them wrote that there was a wholesale expulsion of Etruscan families together with the Tarquins ! About their sources you must read their books . Note - I have said in post no.1 "they" not "Livy" . I actually in opinion that the Roman-Etruscan nobility remained In Rome after the fall of Tarquinius Again I say - I have great respect for Livy but his first books are only an Augustan version for early Rome , no more no less . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 They say that from the beggining there were 2 Consuls (Praetors) , so what about the "Praetor Maximus" that the sources refer to ? Any thoughts ? I don't like to use this , but it might be of some help. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia edit Dictator was a political office of the Roman Republic. A legal innovation of the Roman Republic, the dictator (Latin for "one who dictates (orders)") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) The famous painting from Vulci about the Vipinas brothers (6 th century) This fresco was found in 1857 in the Francois tomb and now it is dated 340-310 BC (see Cristofani M. Richerche sulle pitture della tomba Francois a Vulc i// Dialoghi di Archeologia. Vol. I, 2. 1967. P. 186 ss.). the inscription about popilius Valesius Sorry, I haven`t found anything about it, even in RE. the Gabii treaty Sorry, but now there are no any remains of this thing, described by Dionysius of Halicarnassus. So once again we have only literary sources. So, it so fell out that all your evidences are very late or just don`t exist at the present time. Edited January 20, 2007 by Philhellene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar CXXXVII Posted January 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 (edited) The famous painting from Vulci about the Vipinas brothers (6 th century) This fresco was found in 1857 in the Francois tomb and now it is dated 340-310 BC (see Cristofani M. Richerche sulle pitture della tomba Francois a Vulc i// Dialoghi di Archeologia. Vol. I, 2. 1967. P. 186 ss.). the inscription about popilius Valesius Sorry, I haven`t found anything about it, even in RE. the Gabii treaty Sorry, but now there are no any remains of this thing, described by Dionysius of Halicarnassus. So once again we have only literary sources. So, it so fell out that all your evidences are very late or just don`t exist at the present time. So now you know about the fresco in the Francois tomb ? It is dated 340-310 BCE and described what ? An episode from mid. 6th century that Livy did not refer too but Tacitus and Claudius did . The Fresco is more genuine than any of livy's or others notions (propoganda from late first century BCE) about the period , by all scholars . At 1857 they had no idea what the fresco is but when they found (in the 80') Claudius' speech in Leon they knew . More important , Evidence has been found in Veii of votive offerings by one Avele Vipenna of Vulci and is associated with this time of conflict (Mid 6th century) ! You don't know about Poplios Valesius of Satricum ? Here - http://www.telemaco.unibo.it/rombo/iscriz/satricum.htm About Gabii , one example - "...460 BCE...the foundation date of the temple of Semo Sancus where the Foedus gabinum was preserved..." (R. M. Ogilvie , The Classical Review, New Ser., Vol. 16, No. 1 (Mar., 1966), pp. 94-98) Dionysius of Halicarnassus notion about the Gabii treaty is the perfect example for geting historical facts from fiction - The stratagem by which Tarquinius obtained possession of the town of Gabii is a mere fiction, derived from Greek and Oriental sources. According to arrangement, his son Sextus requested the protection of the inhabitants against his father. Having obtained their confidence, he sent a messenger to Tairquinius to inquire the next step. His father made no reply to the messenger, but walked up and down his garden, striking off the heads of the tallest poppies. Sextus thereupon put to death all the chief men of the town, and thus obtained the mastery. The stratagem of Sextus is that practised by Zopyrus is the case of Babylon, while the episode of the poppy-heads is borrowed from the advice given by Thrasybulus to Periander (Herodotus III 154, V 92). Now . he and others said that they saw the treaty in the temple so from that we know the truth - The town came under Tarquinius' dominion by formal agreement, not, as the tradition states, by treachery and violence Sorry , what is your point ? I have no problem with off topic discussions , but instead of a discussion about early Fasti Consulares i find myself trying to show you that we have other information besides livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus... What are you trying to say ? Edited January 21, 2007 by Caesar CXXXVII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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