Spain Cathedral Shuns Muslim Plea

[Pantagathus]

Juan Jose Asenjo rejected the request made by Spain's Islamic Board in a letter to the Pope.

 

It had asked that the cathedral become an ecumenical temple where believers from all faiths could worship.

 

The bishop said such a move would not contribute to the peaceful co-existence between people of different religions...

 

Full Story: Here

[Gaius Octavius]

I'll go along with the moslem request ON THE DAY CHRISTIANS MAY WORSHIP IN SANCTA SOPHIA. Same circumstances.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Oh well, the Church owns it, so they do what they want.

 

Now if we could get the Hagia Sophia back, then heck, the Muslims can have any church in former Basque Spain.

[Ursus]

Can we Pagans have the Parthenon and Pantheon back?

[The Augusta]

I wonder if the Muslims would allow Christians to worship in a mosque.....

 

No...thought not.

[Pantagathus]

Now if we could get the Hagia Sophia back, then heck, the Muslims can have any church in former Basque Spain.

Basque Spain = Pyrenees = North <---NOT----> Moorish Spain = Andalucia = South :frusty:

 

Can we Pagans have the Parthenon and Pantheon back?

Good idea, let's get started on that Ursus

[Gaius Octavius]

Frankly, I think that it is only fair to give that lot a church to bang their heads around in - in Guantanamo.

Chop the hands off of priests? O.K., then we adopt the KGB's attitude and relieve them of a 'certain' appendage. Should keep camels, goats and sheeps from being 'worried'.

 

Doesn't RW tell us that RC's are a bunch of pagans? So, the Pantheon is in good hands!

 

[Northern Neil]

Oh dear... who might 'that lot' be, my dear Octavius? Coming as I do from the North of England, I see rather a lot of them, and count some among my friends - but they are not the Veil - wearing, gun-toting turban-wearing fanatics one sees on nasty news reports on Fox news. Far from it. Come to think of it, none of the Americans I know are NRA members, fundamentalist Christians or KKK either. What a disservice the world's journalists do us!

 

I do concede Augusta's point, though; here in old Blighty there is a feeling that 'that lot' get more concessions off us than we do them. It has to be said, however, that none of the Christian mosaics in Santa Sophia have been removed, despite Islam's distaste for icons. To keep it that way, maybe the Spanish Cathedral proposal should be reconsidered. I would hate the Haghia Sophia mosaics go the same way as the Bamiyan Buddhas (Afghanistan) and the Byzantine Empire itself due to lack of accommodation and stereotyping on both sides.

 

(Addendum) On looking up Haghia Sofia on Wikipedia, it turns out it is neither a mosque or a church now - or maybe it is both, given that Christians and Musims are not barred from praying in it. It is a museum, called by the Turks Ayasofya. The Christian mosaics were covered up, but not destroyed, and the various sultans periodically uncovered them to repair them, prior to then plastering over them again. In the 1930's Ataturk decreed that the mosaics be uncovered and the Church/Mosque become a museum showing aspects of both faiths. Now, about that Cathedral in Cordoba...

Edited December 28, 2006 by Northern Neil

[Virgil61]

Oh dear... who might 'that lot' be, my dear Octavius? Coming as I do from the North of England, I see rather a lot of them, and count some among my friends - but they are not the Veil - wearing, gun-toting turban-wearing fanatics one sees on nasty news reports on Fox news. Far from it...

 

That's nice, they've become more secular and westernized due to time spent in the UK I'd wager. Spend some time in the Middle East and you'll see a different story.

 

I've always been respectful and intrigued by other cultures having spent part of my youth and my adult life in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. After seeing the thousandth young woman in an Islamic country treated like chattel, local minority Christians afraid to reveal their religion and forced to veil-up, seeing groups of young Islamic men who'd slit your throat in a minute if they could get away with it, etc., etc., I 'lost that lovin' feeling'.

 

The Spaniards fought the reconquista for centuries on their way back through their own country to re-coup their own lands. Fine with me if they didn't want them in a Catholic church.

[Gaius Octavius]

NN:

 

Seems that you do know who that 'lot' are. There is not one moslem country on the face of the Earth where a Christian - or any other - may practice his faith openly and in security. Did you miss that bit in India, where a mosque was overbuilt by a Hindu shrine? Bit of bloodletting. The Bosnia affair was as a result of Izebegovitch wanting to make Bosnia a moslem state. Have you missed the goings on in Nigeria?, the Philippines? How about the hanging of three Christian teenagers in Packistan for blasphemy? Chopping priests hands off in Indonesia?

Edited December 29, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Kosmo]

As NN pointed Hagia Sophia it's a museum. Nearby Irene Church, older then Hagia Sophia, it was used as a storage area by sultans (it's inside first area of Topkapi Palace) Sometimes turks used it as a concert hall but now it's in bad shape.

Mesquita, the Cordoba Cathedral has a very different story. It was initially a visigot church taken over by muslims and gradually expanded. After spaniards reconquered Cordoba they build a huge cathedral without walls inside the mosque.

If Hagia Sophia is largely the same (they build the ugly minarets, fountains for washing, wrote inscriptions from Coran) as when muslims made it a mosque Cordoba Cathedral it is seriously modified.

Spaniards keep many policeman inside to disallow muslims to pray at the eastern wall.

I confess praying in Hagia Sophia but I did it in my mind and any muslim could do that even in St. Peter.

All this is postcolonial blur and islamic agressivity.

And Turkey it's not the usual islamic country, they look to me as fanatic nationalists and less as religious ones.

[spittle]

I cannot stand too much certainty in religion thats why I avoid America's Bible Belt. The polarising of viewpoints is the beginning of extremism and I have had much kindness shown me by muslims in their country's and mine (which is secular, lest we forget).

 

Much of the Mid East trouble is more Oil/Economic based than religious and using the Afghans as an example of typical islam????

 

My two favourite buildings are Islamic structures in non-Islamic countries. The Alhambra in Granada (I love Andalucia) and the Taj Mahal.

 

Like Norhern Neil I'm from the North of England and have grown up with many muslims that I am proud to call friends. They don't care about religion but attend the Mosque to respect their parents wishes. Give it another generation and they'll be as religion free as myself

[Northern Neil]

NN:

 

There is not one moslem country on the face of the Earth where a Christian - or any other - may practice his faith openly and in security?

 

...Apart from Malaysia, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey itself. India is Multireligious, as is Nigeria and several other African countries. Admitted, there are some streets in even the most moderate Islamic countries that an unaccompanied Christian might not want to walk down. But again, there are streets in Britain that an unaccompanied Muslim would not want to walk down either, and for the same reasons.

 

The Bosnia affair was as a result of Izebegovitch wanting to make Bosnia a moslem state.

 

Wern't the worst attrocities in the former Yugoslavia committed by Christian Serbs? Its a good job the English speaking Canadians didn't go into Quebec and do the same thing to French speakers when THEY dabbled with independence!!

 

My muslim acquaintances tell me that most muslims in their home countries are like themselves, but that isn't really newsworthy, so you don't often see them. They also point out to me that pior to us blundering in there, Iraq was tolerant to Christians too, and there had until recently been a thriving Christian community nearly 2000 years old. But since the war, they have now largely gone, as they are seen as beeing in league with those bombing their homes. Own goal to us, I'd say.

 

The initial aim of my lighthearted comment was to point out that there are some misconceptions as to the status of Haghia Sophia, and that assuming all muslims are the same as the ones in Guantanamo Bay is a mistake. Western media have a vested interest in making sure we continue to regard them as insane devils so we see the worst images and hear the worst stories. That is why Michael Moore went to great effort to show us what ordinary Iraqis were like in his film Farenheit 911. The made-up women, sports fans and computer geeks he interviewed didn't look much like insane enemies to me.

 

Given the sensitive way that Haghia Sophia was restored and made into a place for all faiths by the cultured and civilised Muslim Turks, perhaps a similar concession at Cordoba would be a good thing. But, yes... hurrah for goood old western democracy for the liberty of being able to say all this!

Edited December 29, 2006 by Northern Neil

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

That is why Michael Moore went to great effort to show us what ordinary Iraqis were like in his film Farenheit 911. The made-up women, sports fans and computer geeks he interviewed didn't look much like insane enemies to me.

That's the worse mistake anyone can make in Iraq, underestimating the fact that the insurgency is part the civilian population.

As for Michael Moore, hah, I can't trust him because his insane biased views.

Edited December 29, 2006 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Gaius Octavius]

NN:

 

There is not one moslem country on the face of the Earth where a Christian - or any other - may practice his faith openly and in security?

 

...Apart from Malaysia, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey itself. [surely, you jest. Make enquiry of the Coptic Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch. These are legally mohammedan countries. Go into a court thither.] India is Multi-religious, as is Nigeria and several other African countries. [Revelations of Biblical proportions! You've not been paying any attention whatsoever to the ABC, the BBC, the CBC, any of the two 'Times' or NPR nor their histories!] Admitted, there are some streets in even the most moderate Islamic countries that an unaccompanied Christian might not want to walk down. But again, there are streets in Britain that an unaccompanied Muslim would not want to walk down either, and for the same reasons. [This does not come under the heading of a legal principle!]

 

The Bosnia affair was as a result of Izebegovitch wanting to make Bosnia a moslem state.

 

Weren't the worst atrocities in the former Yugoslavia committed by Christian Serbs? [As a result of the above quote] Its a good job the English speaking Canadians didn't go into Quebec and do the same thing to French speakers when THEY dabbled with independence!! [Makes my point; not yours!]

 

My muslim acquaintances tell me that most muslims in their home countries are like themselves, but that isn't really newsworthy, so you don't often see them. They also point out to me that pior to us blundering in there, Iraq was tolerant to Christians too,[Tolerance is not equality.]. and there had until recently been a thriving Christian community nearly 2000 years old. But since the war, they have now largely gone, as they are seen as beeing in league with those bombing their homes. Own goal to us, I'd say. [?Que?]

 

The initial aim of my lighthearted comment was to point out that there are some misconceptions as to the status of Haghia Sophia,[Whose?] and that assuming all muslims are the same as the ones in Guantanamo Bay is a mistake.[Who said that?] Western media have a vested interest in making sure we continue to regard them as insane devils so we see the worst images and hear the worst stories. [Regretfully, my meeting with Don Giovanni didn't make not so much as an item in the rags. Had he plugged me, that would have made headlines.]That is why Michael Moore went to great effort to show us what ordinary Iraqis were like in his film Farenheit 911. The made-up women, sports fans and computer geeks he interviewed didn't look much like insane enemies to me.[Who said that they were 'insane enemies?]

 

Given the sensitive way that Haghia Sophia was restored and made into a place for all faiths by the cultured and civilised Muslim Turks, perhaps a similar concession at Cordoba would be a good thing. [it would also be a 'good' thing if all Christians converted to the 'religion of peace'. The Cathedral is an operating Church; Holy Wisdom is now! a museum.] But, yes... hurrah for goood old western democracy for the liberty of being able to say all this! [Agreed, ergo, I won't point out those little affairs in re the Pope, the Netherlands and Denmark.]