Legionnaires in China?

[Skarr]

I hope someone writes a book with actual photographs etc of the "Chinese" who are blue eyed and have Roman features. It would be something to research into, if funding could be obtained as I would imagine that you would have to first deal with the Chinese bureaucracy and also seek the help of Chinese historians etc.. , before you were allowed to visit the place and interview folks, take pictures, dig around for artifacts that may be buried in tombs

[Viggen]

I hope someone writes a book with actual photographs etc of the "Chinese" who are blue eyed and have Roman features. It would be something to research into, if funding could be obtained as I would imagine that you would have to first deal with the Chinese bureaucracy and also seek the help of Chinese historians etc.. , before you were allowed to visit the place and interview folks, take pictures, dig around for artifacts that may be buried in tombs

 

You want chinese with blue eyes?

Here they are

http://sln.fi.edu/inquirer/mummy.html

http://geography.berkeley.edu:16080/Progra...ns/mummies.html

 

well they have nothing to do with the Romans, but interesting story nevertheless, however they seemed to be recorded by Pliny

 

Pliny reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking", suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin:

 

"They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; that the father of Rachias (the ambassador) had frequently visited their country, and that the Ser

[Arvioustus]

Is it not impossible that these caould be Celts or Germans not even with the Roman army? There are many indications that the Celts and Germans were more than just 'barbarians' but excellent merhants.

[Sees2006]

I read an interesting article

 

"Romans in China. This idea was first proposed by Homer Hasenphlug Dubs, an Oxford University professor of Chinese history, who speculated in 1955 that some of the 10,000 Roman prisoners taken by the Parthians after the battle of Carrhae in southeastern Turkey in 53 B.C. made their way east to Uzbekistan to enlist with Huns against the Han Chinese amry who were battling the region at the time. Chinese accounts of the battle, in which Jzh Jzh (a branch of Huns) was decapitated and his army defeated, note unusual military formations and the use of wooden fortifications foreign to the nomadic Huns. Dubs postulated that after the battle the Chinese employed the captured Roman mercenaries as border guards, settling them in Liqian, a short form of Alexandria used by the Chinese to denote Rome. While some Chinese scholars have been critical of Dubs' hypothesis, others went so far as to identify Lou Zhuangzi as the probable location of Liqian in the late 1980s."

 

I also read an article published in Chinese anthropology journals indicates the discovery of the the Lou Zuangzi Village in Gang Su province northwest West China, describing local residents with European features and ruin sites similar Roman town formations. Chinese historical records suggest the capture of 2,000 European army during the battle during which a lost Roman divison (most likely after The Roman commander Crathiest was killed in battle with the Parthians, his lost legion flew to central asia and was later hired by Huns who were in war with the Chinese in central Asia around 50 B.C.--10 AD) The captured "soliders" were given permission to take residency in current day Gang Su Province China, at the time a outpost of Han Chinese Empire on its trade zone to Persia and Rome known as the "Silk Road".

[Primus Pilus]

Indeed, we've mentioned it a bit around here, though its never seemed to go much beyond a cursory discussion

 

Did the Romans get to China

 

Romans descendents found in Gansu

 

The Lost Legion

[P.Clodius]

HAHAHA, this one is funny.

 

It may be wishful thinking, but so captivating is the notion of a Roman town in ancient China that for 50 years it has inspired a disparate variety of supporters, among them an Oxford University professor, an Australian adventurer and the abbot of a nearby Buddhist temple. The abbot says prayers for the ghosts of Roman soldiers, who, he reports, visit his temple to petition for salvation. Through an illiterate woman who acts as a medium, the abbot has discovered that Julius Caesar himself spent his final days in Yongchang county and died a Buddhist. Caesar's assassins apparently got the wrong man.

[phil25]

I cannot now recall where i read it, I'll try to track down the reference, but I had understood for years that parthian captives sort of drifted east and ended up in western China. My memory suggests they might have been some of Crassus' men after Carrhae, but that may just be my memory playing tricks.

 

Phil

[Neos Dionysos]

I cannot now recall where i read it, I'll try to track down the reference, but I had understood for years that parthian captives sort of drifted east and ended up in western China. My memory suggests they might have been some of Crassus' men after Carrhae, but that may just be my memory playing tricks.

 

Phil

 

I too have the same feeling and am unsure of the reference. But I don't think it was a 'drift' east, more so it was to ensure that the captives would not defect back to thier old nations of origin and so were sent all the way East so they were in a completely alien world and thus would be more controllable and even more loyal since now they depended on thier captors to keep them alive in such an alien environment.

[Ursus]

Several similar threads have been merged, thanks to the nifty moderation features. Enjoy.

[ungoliant]

it's a great story. and it certainly sounds possible. but maybe not probable.

 

for this theory to advance beyond speculation, i think more digging and DNA tets will be necessary.

Edited January 19, 2006 by ungoliant

[fretensis10]

"Romans in China. This idea was first proposed by Homer Hasenphlug Dubs, an Oxford University professor of Chinese history, who speculated in 1955 that some of the 10,000 Roman prisoners taken by the Parthians after the battle of Carrhae in southeastern Turkey in 53 B.C. made their way east to Uzbekistan to enlist with Huns against the Han Chinese amry who were battling the region at the time. Chinese accounts of the battle, in which Jzh Jzh (a branch of Huns) was decapitated and his army defeated, note unusual military formations and the use of wooden fortifications foreign to the nomadic Huns. Dubs postulated that after the battle the Chinese employed the captured Roman mercenaries as border guards, settling them in Liqian, a short form of Alexandria used by the Chinese to denote Rome. While some Chinese scholars have been critical of Dubs' hypothesis, others went so far as to identify Lou Zhuangzi as the probable location of Liqian in the late 1980s."

 

This theory hasn't found much support among serious scholars. There was a PBS TV program on this topic recently that made points mentioned in the article below.

 

Basically, Dub's thesis rests only on the 'fishscale' quote, but comparison with conventional historical Chinese use of the term suggests it could refer to a tight-packed formation, not necessarily a testudo. The palisades were widely used Central Asia, too. And efforts to trace European DNA in Lou Zhuangzhi residents have turned out nothing, either.

 

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-08/...ent_3396301.htm

[Marcus Caelius]

Just ran across an account of the possibility that some of Crassus' legionnaires may have ended up in western China. Before I give any specifics, I'd like to see what other accounts, opinions and/or evidence might be out there.

 

Anyone?

[Maladict]

You must be referring to this:

From wiki:

The Chinese have an account by Ban Gu of soldiers under the command of the nomadic chief Jzh Jzh who fought in a so-called "fish-scale formation". The historian Homer Dubs claimed that this might have been the Roman testudo formation and that these men, who were captured by the Chinese, were able to found the city Liqian (Li-chien). However there is precisely no evidence that these men were Romans or that this claim is anything other than speculation.

 

I've never seen any picture of it, despite claims of that city having been found.

[Pertinax]

Gentlemen we have had a thread on this topic previously, I will search it out and append these posts to it so you can see what has been discussed previously...please feel free continue here though until my search is complete.

 

post scriptum: the change is effected! please scroll back from this post.

[Maladict]

Heh, that confused me a bit at first

 

But there you have it, no proof whatsoever.