Poisons and poisoners

[Andrew Dalby]

Pertinax,

 

Looking at the title of your thread, I now assume you are aware of the book by C.J.S. Thompson, Poisons and Poisoners; With historical accounts of some famous mysteries in ancient and modern times published in the 30's?

 

Interestingly enough, according to Thompson, the Egyptians at an early period figured out how to extract the powerful poison (prussic acid/cyanide) from peach pits and that it was cyanide that Nero used to dispatch Britanicus.

 

Interesting if true -- about the Egyptians -- but is it true? It sounds like a version of the old chestnut (if I may call it that) "peaches are poisonous when grown in Egypt". I think Pliny was the first to say that.

 

 

How does one know that pelicans are hallucinating?

 

What about pufferfish? Was it known in Rome? (it's supposedly great to eat, but one slip of the knife and it's deadly)

 

I think that's a Pacific fish, isn't it? Too far off for Romans to eat, anyway.

 

Good question about the pelicans ...

[Pantagathus]

Interesting if true -- about the Egyptians -- but is it true? It sounds like a version of the old chestnut (if I may call it that) "peaches are poisonous when grown in Egypt". I think Pliny was the first to say that.

Andrew,

 

Apparently some papyrus in the Louvre's collection explains the preparation process.

 

Good question about the pelicans ...

I've seen scores of birds get drunk on juniper berries that ferment on the tree... Based on their behavior it's not a strecth to think of them as hallucinating!

[Pertinax]

Pelican update: if you recall GO posted an item about pelicans flying into cars and then staggering around in an intoxicated and dazed manner (San Diego area possibly?). The cause was the consumption of nudibranchs saturated with red algae -the birds were indeed "on a trip".

 

AD will recall his unpleasant experience with cherries? For those of you unaware ,amagdalyin (laetrile, also called erroneously in my opinion vitamin B17) is concentrated in a number of seed pips cherries, peach , almond for example-if allowed to "go off " slightly they become a source of cyanide (though a fair amount (not telling !) is required to give an effective fatal dose especially if digested with a strongly alkaline medium such as -the flesh of cherries! Plenty of the Rosaceae genus have this hidden "quality".Given the widespread distribution of the genus, and the notable potency of Egyptian grown plants (in terms of concentration of chemical constituents) we should perhaps entertain a suspicion that the poison was known.

 

Pantagathus, I am aware of the title but unable to get a copy here- is there a hypertext anywhere?

[Pantagathus]

Pantagathus, I am aware of the title but unable to get a copy here- is there a hypertext anywhere?

I have yet to find one, only references in other papers.

 

That being said, I have another animal poison to mention...

 

The infamous 'Spanish Fly' or cantharadine from the beetle Lytta vesicatoria. In small doses could be used as a sort of aphrodisiac (new vocab word of the day: Priapism) but can turn into a dangerous poison in higher doses.

[Pertinax]

An aside on Aconite which we have implicated in Julio-Claudian intrigue; it is actually refered to as the "mother -in-law" poison in folk context, make of that what you will. Interestingly a very subtle assassin might be able to differentiate between the varieties of the plant and aim for a slow motion assassination, A.napellus (the most well known garden variant being the deadliest0, the disparity in strength inter- species is large.The only way to test the efficacy of the toxic principle was to measure a dose and administer to a small animal-a deadly dose to a rabbit would not normally kill a human , so incremental usage of aconitine could be slowly administerd.Given that the root contains only 0.3 to 1 percentum aconitine (yet is deadly ) it can be sen that the quantity required would be miniscule. If one burns the root the ash is 3 percentum aconitine.

Symptoms of poisoning arenumbness of the tounge and mouth and a crawling sensation over the skin -the victim looses gross motor functions, goes clammy and suffers laboured breathing yet remains clear minded .The antidote is Digitalis as an emetic purge(the attempted assassination of Bond in Casino Royale was by Digitalis), which would induce vomiting but slow down the repiration to reduce the possibility of cardiac shock.

 

Returning to the cyanide in rosaceae pips - dont eat too much stale marzipan!

 

Pantagathus, I am aware of the title but unable to get a copy here- is there a hypertext anywhere?

I have yet to find one, only references in other papers.

 

That being said, I have another animal poison to mention...

 

The infamous 'Spanish Fly' or cantharadine from the beetle Lytta vesicatoria. In small doses could be used as a sort of aphrodisiac (new vocab word of the day: Priapism) but can turn into a dangerous poison in higher doses.

 

Ahem:

In 1752 a Frenchman was prescribed 2 drams of cantharides for a fever and in the next two months bedded his wife at least 87 times. Another man with a similar prescription "knew his wife", as the Bible puts it, 40 times in one night.

 

Here is the genus rationale:-

 

"The term Cantharis was employed by the ancient Greek writers to designate many coleopterous insects or beetles. Linnasus gave the title to a genus not including the official blistering insect, placing the latter in the genus Meloe, which, however, has been since divided into several genera. Geoffrey made the Spanish fly (beetle) the prototype of a new genus, Cantharis, substituting Cincindela as the title of the Linnasan genus. Fabricius altered the arrangement of Geoffrey, and substituted Lytta for Cantharis as the generic name. The former was adopted by the London College, and at one time was in extensive use; but, the latter, having been restored by Latreille, is now universally employed. By this naturalist the vesicating insects were grouped in a small tribe, corresponding very nearly with the LinnAean genus Meloe, and distinguished by the title Cantharide, This tribe he divided into eleven genera, among which is Cantharis".

[Horatius]

What do you guys think of this? http://www.historyswomen.com/moregreatwomen/Locusta.html Seems she is touted as one of history's first serial killers. Was this a real character?

[caldrail]

As far as I'm aware she was real. Herbalists weren't unusual back then and most would have learned something of poisons - they needed to otherwise they'd killoff their customers!

 

The impression I get is that the romans didn't do much to progress the science of poisoning. They relied on Aconite, henlock, and arsenic (actually an arsenic oxide which you could build an immunity to with regular small doses. We read of romans doing that. Agrippina the younger was one). Cyanide is a bit exotic for roman tastes. I'm not saying it wasn't used, just that it wasn't commonly employed.

Edited December 15, 2006 by caldrail

[Pertinax]

The toxic principle in a "poisinous" plant is often the most effective medicinal component if administered in a correct dose , foxglove (Digitalis ) being the most straightforward example in this thread (being in daily use in so called "pharmacuetical " medicines as digoxin). Henbane likewise, though its principle active ingredient hycosine is replicated synthetically.

[Pertinax]

WW jogged my memory about Sempronia in another thread, but I can only find references to her "allowing access" to the putative assassins of her husband. One always conjectures that such an "unexplained" death in the presence of a woman of intelligence and political acumen would suggest the use of a poison .

[WotWotius]

I was not able to find anymore information on Sempronia, but I was able to find an account in Livy of poinsoners from an earlier time (331 BC), Cornelia and Sergia:

 

'M. Claudius Marcellus and T. Valerius were the new consuls. I find in the annals Flaccus and Potitus variously given as the consul's cognomen, but the question is of small importance. This year gained an evil notoriety, either through the unhealthy weather or through human guilt. I would gladly believe - and the authorities are not unanimous on the point - that it is a false story which states that those whose deaths made the year notorious for pestilence were really carried off by poison. I shall, however, relate the matter as it has been handed down to avoid any appearance of impugning the credit of our authorities. The foremost men in the State were being attacked by the same malady, and in almost every case with the same fatal results. A maid-servant went to Q. Fabius Maximus, one of the curule aediles, and promised to reveal the cause of the public mischief if the government would guarantee her against any danger in which her discovery might involve her. Fabius at once brought the matter to the notice of the consuls and they referred it to the senate, who authorised the promise of immunity to be given. She then disclosed the fact that the State was suffering through the crimes of certain women; those poisons were concocted by Roman matrons, and if they would follow her at once she promised that they should catch the poisoners in the act. They followed their informant and actually found some women compounding poisonous drugs and some poisons already made up. These latter were brought into the Forum, and as many as twenty matrons, at whose houses they had been seized, were brought up by the magistrates' officers. Two of them, Cornelia and Sergia, both members of patrician houses, contended that the drugs were medicinal preparations. The maid-servant, when confronted with them, told them to drink some that they might prove she had given false evidence. They were allowed time to consult as to what they would do, and the bystanders were ordered to retire that they might take counsel with the other matrons. They all consented to drink the drugs, and after doing so fell victims to their own criminal designs. Their attendants were instantly arrested, and denounced a large number of matrons as being guilty of the same offence, out of whom a hundred and seventy were found guilty. Up to that time there had never been a charge of poison investigated in Rome. The whole incident was regarded as a portent, and thought to be an act of madness rather than deliberate wickedness. In consequence of the universal alarm created, it was decided to follow the precedent recorded in the annals. During the secessions of the plebs in the old days a nail had been driven in by the Dictator, and by this act of expiation men's minds, disordered by civil strife, had been restored to sanity. A resolution was passed accordingly, that a Dictator should be appointed to drive in the nail. Cnaeus Quinctilius was appointed and named L. Valerius as his Master of the Horse. After the nail was driven in they resigned office.' -Livy, 8.18.

[The Augusta]

The toxic principle in a "poisinous" plant is often the most effective medicinal component if administered in a correct dose , foxglove (Digitalis ) being the most straightforward example in this thread (being in daily use in so called "pharmacuetical " medicines as digoxin). Henbane likewise, though its principle active ingredient hycosine is replicated synthetically.

 

An excellent point, Pertinax. I have often wondered how many 'poisoning' cases were the result of over-zealous and ignorant usage of the medicinal elements of such plants. Wot's post quoting Livy's story of Cornelia and Sergia is enlightening. Isn't there a case for saying that if Cornelia and Sergia drank their own preparations, they were ignorant as to the harm they could cause? This could open up a whole can of worms.

[Pertinax]

I am tantalised as to what the "poisons" might be. I have to add that some "poisinous" properties depend on the mode of application, aconite and belladona for example are excellent as external salves (on unbroken flesh) , but enormous care would be needed to use them medicinally. I suppose Ricin is the best modern example, the castor bean is harmless as an expressed oil (indeed most beneficial for a bad digestion) , but the ricin toxin taken from the crushed oil meal is deadly if it enters the bloodstream via an external or intramuscular wound -and in the tiniest amount.

Belladonna , as you may know was withdrawn as an external plaster for arthritic pain because one or two peole couldnt resist sliting the dressings open and poisoning their husbands................

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=132

[The Augusta]

Belladonna , as you may know was withdrawn as an external plaster for arthritic pain because one or two peole couldnt resist sliting the dressings open and poisoning their husbands................

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=132

 

I actually remember my grandma painting her foot with belladonna because of the gout! This must have been in the 60s when I was a tiny tot - but it was definitely belladonna. Do we know when it was withdrawn?

[Pertinax]

Belladonna , as you may know was withdrawn as an external plaster for arthritic pain because one or two peole couldnt resist sliting the dressings open and poisoning their husbands................

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=132

 

I actually remember my grandma painting her foot with belladonna because of the gout! This must have been in the 60s when I was a tiny tot - but it was definitely belladonna. Do we know when it was withdrawn?

 

Mid 70s I would suggest, as my Mother retained some for her lumbar pain., and is deeply irritated that none are now available.

 

Just as well your Grandmama did not follow Pliny, as we see the sea-hare resurfacing:

 

"For the cure of gout and of diseases of the joints, oil is useful in which the intestines of frogs have been boiled. Ashes, too, of burnt bramble-frogs are similarly employed, with stale grease; in addition to which, some persons use calcined barley, the three ingredients being mixed in equal proportions. It is recommended too, in cases of gout, to rub the parts affected with a sea-hare" (The Natural History).

[Lost_Warrior]

Isn't it possible to find belladonna either in the wild or in a garden, and process it yourself?

 

Sea-hare?? Is that better, or worse, than the various frogs?