Antiochus of Seleucia Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 He speaks to me and the robotic manner in which I pledge my soul to the flag in the corner of the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Why does any mature state require an oath of loyalty? New UK citizens now have to take one, copying the US system - and I think it ridiculous. Call me old school, there's something touchingly poignant about one man giving his word or an oath and all that. The only swearing in ceremony for citizenship I attended was of a soldier who'd come to the US. He invited the whole unit to it, and of course we were all given the day off to attend. His family, who attended, had left Vietnam on a boat with 60 others and nothing but the clothes on their back, ended up in a refugee camp for a year then to the US where they began a new life. It was one of the more moving ceremony's I've ever witnessed, call me an old softee. By the way, how did "god" get into the US oath of allegiance - I thought there was strict separation of church/state? It came into being as a result of the reaction against godless commies in the late '50s. Courts have been divided, with some circuit courts ruling it's against the consitution but the most important court (the Supreme Court) ruling it's acceptable as long as children are given an option out of reciting it. There's a healthy bit of political coloring to the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Doesnt it say on the Dollar note, "In God we trust?" btw. the patriotic enthusiasm of US citizens always amazes me, and is also something very strange (almost fundamentalist in a sense to me), i mean i pay tax to the state the state in return provides basic services - end of story... why sing, cheer wave flags? It`s a deal, i give - i take no reason to get all romantic, but thats just my opinion of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Doesnt it say on the Dollar note, "In God we trust?" Different kind of god. Seriously. The Founding Fathers were largely deists, not theists; that is, the god they believed in was the Creator, but that was the end of its involvement in earthly affairs. btw. the patriotic enthusiasm of US citizens always amazes me, and is also something very strange (almost fundamentalist in a sense to me), i mean i pay tax to the state the state in return provides basic services - end of story... why sing, cheer wave flags? Read de Toquevill'es Democracy in America and get back to me with that thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 why sing, cheer wave flags? It`s a deal, i give - i take no reason to get all romantic, but thats just my opinion of course... Perhaps Viggen, that is why the borders in Europe were and are constanly redrawn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurius Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 There is only one oath required by the Constitution of the United States - that which is uttered by the President-elect upon taking office. And that oath makes no mention of any deity. I therefore don't understand why school children are forced to take an oath with a religious component. If one must take an oath of loyalty to one's government, so be it. But if that oath of loyalty demands with it adherence to a particular religion, then there will be problems. Really, the whole thing is laced with irony. We've come full circle from the days of Ancient Rome when the imperial government forced its subjects to light incense to the emperor as a sign of loyalty, and the Christians objected to it on religious grounds. Now that the shoe is on the other foot .... Well, it may be the only one with a written text in the Constitution. Article. VI., Clause.3 - The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. This does require an oath, though the text was not specified. (The current oath was set up in law around late 1800s. IIRC.) The Congressional Oath of Office reads: I, Loyal Citizen of the Republic, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. So there is a mention of God, but notice the clause forbids a religious test such as swearing it in an oath. A tricky compromise at best, and I think a member of congress can just omit "So help me God" if they wish. I grew up reciting the Pledge everyday at the start of school until the fifth grade (10-years-old). It didn't feel forced but it did remind me that we were part of a greater country. And people were fighting and dying for it everyday (Vietnam was the war back then). We also went through the whole "Red is for the blood our forefathers shed to keep the country safe...." thing once a month or so. So, I think it's silly to ban the recitation, I think it's silly to get bent out of shape over them banning it. For the record, I come from a military family (Dad was a twenty-year-man). I'm a Republican and consider myself conservative. I grew up a combination of Eastern Orthadox/Southern Baptist , have been an Atheist for 25 years. My wife is Roman Catholic and we send our son to MMF. Some (or all) people may call me warped, but this is a tempest in a tea cup. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 If anyone thinks that repeating a mantra daily will instill loyalty in a nation, they've got another thing coming. In my opinion, all this is just another one of those old world traditions that do not mean anything in reality except for those who like it. So enforcing it, especially with the great waster known as 'religion,' does nothing but waste time and resource. My views of America have nothing to do with my gradeschool experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 There is only one oath required by the Constitution of the United States - that which is uttered by the President-elect upon taking office. And that oath makes no mention of any deity... Remember the Constitution isn't the only body of law ruling this in the US, there are hundreds of congressional federal statutes, state laws etc, that supplement Constitutional requirements. As long as they don't conflict or supercede the constitution they generally are OK--affirmations or oaths being included. As for oaths including a deity I'm in agreement ith you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 If anyone thinks that repeating a mantra daily will instill loyalty in a nation, they've got another thing coming. So, you think the whole concept of brainwashing is invalid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Read de Toquevill'es Democracy in America and get back to me with that thought. I read some of his chapters, but he wrote about something he saw 160 years ago.. So you are saying the american way of life has not evolved since then? Perhaps Viggen, that is why the borders in Europe were and are constanly redrawn...I think it is the opposite, because of false patriotism were borders redrawn in Europe all the time... cheers viggen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I think it is the opposite, because of false patriotism were borders redrawn in Europe all the time... Meh, I'm just joking anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Isn't it interesting how widely the Pledge is required of children--yet how seldom an adult has any reason to recite it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephele Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Isn't it interesting how widely the Pledge is required of children--yet how seldom an adult has any reason to recite it? When I attend Town Hall meetings (I've been involved in a few grassroots political movements, so I attend Town meetings to know what my local politicians are up to) everyone is always led in a recitation of the Pledge at the start of the meeting. I'm not bothered by reciting the Pledge at Town Hall meetings. It's a tribal ritual, as far as I'm concerned, and not a particularly stimulating tribal ritual either, if you ask me. To tell you the truth, I'd feel a LOT more patriotic if we also were to include a tribal ritual of dancing naked and whooping around a huge bonfire in the center of Town Hall. I'll bet THAT would encourage more folks to attend Town meetings and get involved, for crapsake. -- Nephele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurius Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 If anyone thinks that repeating a mantra daily will instill loyalty in a nation, they've got another thing coming. In my opinion, all this is just another one of those old world traditions that do not mean anything in reality except for those who like it. So enforcing it, especially with the great waster known as 'religion,' does nothing but waste time and resource. My views of America have nothing to do with my gradeschool experiences. I'm curious, what if anything was taught to you about patriotism in gradeschool? Was it delayed to middle or high school? I throw this out because my childhood experience was different from the norm - army brats while not a small group are definitely a minority. So I'm always curious as to how people come to their conclusions. Since I had patriotism like music (invisible but everywhere) around me as I grew up, my basic beliefs in that area were pretty much set by high school. Not that I haven't examined them - an unexamined life is not worth living - but most of the basic structure is intact. I'm just wondering what age you or anyone else think that patriotism should be taught to kids in school? Is the Pledge of Allegiance not a good tool? Not being defensive just really curious.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 (edited) So you are saying the american way of life has not evolved since then? I'm saying that Americans have not evolved much since then. Edited November 14, 2006 by Marcus Caelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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