FLavius Valerius Constantinus Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 (edited) link to article Sure, I understand you're atheist, but you're still a friggin American citizen and that means the US government needs your loyalty. I wish I can send these asinines on a rendition to Egypt. I hope I don't offend anyone, but I'm so piss at the level of radicalism these days. And for Christ's sake, it's a damn pledge upon which men died defending and upon which immigrants that became naturalized like my family would gladly defend. I sure as hell don't take this for granted. Edited November 11, 2006 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 One of the implications of having freedom of expression is that people will use it in ways one does not agree with. But most of these youngsters will grow out of these views - I think you'll find that many of the staunchest upholders of society in many countries were "radical"/madcap when they were young. They let of steam, then come to realise that maybe the old folks weren't so daft after all!! In the mid-1930s there was a famous debate in the Oxford Union which voted that the students involved would not die for King and Country. It was many of those same students who fought (and in some cases died) in the Battle of Britain only a few years later. Wow, i just read what i wrote and I seem to be arguing moderation!! I think I better go and lie down. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 I think refusing to honor the flag, to honor the principles your country is based on is unacceptable. A Pledge of Allegiance is something I've never had to do being an Australian. I don't find the article so radical though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 While Californian students can be obnoxious in flaunting their trendy views, the kid was right about one thing: "under god" was inserted during the Red Scare of the '50's as a public loyalty test against godless Communism. Some consider it offensive. At the very least, it is outdated. The principle enemy these days is not godless communists, but people who believe in their god so much they will kill you if you don't trim your beard in strict observance of their religious law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 I agree with Ursus. What's unpatriotic is religious leaders vandalizing my pledge to become an advertisement for their product--if religious leaders want to sell God to people, let them do it in church. How would you like it if the pledge were amended to read "one nation drinking Coke"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Augusta Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 The principle enemy these days is not godless communists, but people who believe in their god so much they will kill you if you don't trim your beard in strict observance of their religious law. Can I just say: 'Hear, hear' and leave it at that? Well said Ursus and Cato. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 (edited) If people do not want to say the pledge because they do not believe in God or do not support America that is fine IMO, but do not take away the right of other people to say it. That makes them seem ignorant and just going after an agenda. In other words sit quietly, and let others say the pledge if the wish to do so. The rest of the people who decide to do so let them. If these guys say that this 'offends' them because they dont like it and try to ban it then I say this, Vomit, Rinse, Repeat. Edited November 11, 2006 by Rameses the Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antiochus of Seleucia Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 If you don't want to say "under god", then leave it out. One should say his pledge, otherwise he is not a very good citizen. Our school does the pledge everyday, hand on heart. I think that is a little excessive, every Monday would be perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan156 Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 (edited) Well im all for respecting people that dont belive in god, but if we have to change the pledge because someone dosent like it they can screw off. Its like changing the Freedom of speech because some poeple in this country cant speak english, IT DOSENT MAKE SENSE! I cant wait for the american empire so crap like this wont happen. If they dont like it, dont say it. Edited November 12, 2006 by Spartan156 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 There is only one oath required by the Constitution of the United States - that which is uttered by the President-elect upon taking office. And that oath makes no mention of any deity. I therefore don't understand why school children are forced to take an oath with a religious component. If one must take an oath of loyalty to one's government, so be it. But if that oath of loyalty demands with it adherence to a particular religion, then there will be problems. Really, the whole thing is laced with irony. We've come full circle from the days of Ancient Rome when the imperial government forced its subjects to light incense to the emperor as a sign of loyalty, and the Christians objected to it on religious grounds. Now that the shoe is on the other foot .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Really, the whole thing is laced with irony. We've come full circle from the days of Ancient Rome when the imperial government forced its subjects to light incense to the emperor as a sign of loyalty, and the Christians objected to it on religious grounds. Now that the shoe is on the other foot .... They forced them at times to bow to the emperor and worship the same Gods as he did. A lot of Christian martyrs in provinces outside of Rome even joined the Roman army as a sign of loyalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Why does any mature state require an oath of loyalty? New UK citizens now have to take one, copying the US system - and I think it ridiculous. By the way, how did "god" get into the US oath of allegiance - I thought there was strict separation of church/state? Anyone who becomes a citizen of any country - ie goes through the legal process - clearly accepts the norms and mores of that society. If they act counter to them then the state has the right and ability to act. What more is needed? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 (edited) Sure, I understand you're atheist, but you're still a friggin American citizen and that means the US government needs your loyalty. What does "accepting God" or mouthing some words under compulsion have to do with American citizenship? I'm a veteran, my two sons are veterans (one of them served two tours in Iraq), and I'm currently a federal officer. I've had two US flags flying from my porch every day since 9/11, I've affirmed to protect the Constitution as both a serviceman and as a civilian, and I vote in every election. I never liked the Pledge and I refuse to say it, with or without the "under God." The "under God" is a later graft onto the original, not unlike the passage in Josephus supposedly confirming the existence of Jesus, while the whole is an extra-legal propaganda piece intended to indoctrinate children into an unthinking loyalty. And maybe you'd better look up what the likes of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and James Madison had to say about God and religion. The greatest danger this nation faces is the well-intentioned citizen who insists on adherence to the principles of the Founding Fathers without knowing what those principles are. One more thought: Those oaths that are actually required by Federal law say nothing about loyalty to either the flag of the United States or to the United States, itself. The person taking the oath pledges to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, not the nation nor the flag. The Constitution and its principles are more important than real estate or symbols, and that is what I have pledged myself to protect. Edited November 12, 2006 by Marcus Caelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 You say the oath everyday? Not even communists asked that! Something like the oath was made from time to time at very special occasions not everyday. That's unbelievable! Can you change the oath? Say gods instead of God? How do satanists make the pledge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 (edited) You say the oath everyday? To whom are you directing your response? Assuming this is directed at me (the post immediately before yours), please quote the passage to which you refer. If this isn't in reply to my post, please never mind. Edited November 12, 2006 by Marcus Caelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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