spittle Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Quote from BBC docudrama Ancient Rome, Episode 2. Caesar: "Caesar reinstated the ancient custom of decimation" Old post: "Wasn't it Crassus who brought back decimation as a punishment for cowardice during the Spartacus uprising?" "Oh yes! I'd forgotten that narration. Caesar was more known for his clemency than his brutality" In actual fact Caesar did use decimation and it was as a direct result of his clemency...Confused? Read on. After his first few victories against the alliance led by Pompey Caesar released all his defeated foes. In many cases the 'generals' he released went straight back to fighting him (Ahenobarbus was one such character). He wouldn't even confiscate their property and this lead to unrest amongst the ranks of his legions. Afterall, by all the standards of the times the legionaries would have expected to keep this preperty as spoils of war. Unrest amongst troops nearly always peaks during periods of inaction and this was the case with the IX Legion when they mutinied. Caesar came down hard on them and ordered that decimation should be the punishment of the legion. He did, however, allow himself to be talked out of this as a full scale option for the entire legion and decreed that 120 would draw lots leaving just 12 individual soldiers to face this grissly fate. It was believed, by the ultimate twelve condemnations, that the lot was rigged (eleven of the twelve were ringleaders of the uprising). When Caesar found out that one of the twelve had not even been in camp during the unrest he investigated the matter, found that a Centurian had included the innocent legionary for personal reasons, and prompty swapped the doomed innocent with the centurian who had framed him. In the battles that followed these events the IX went on to distinguish themselves in battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Quote from BBC docudrama Ancient Rome, Episode 2. Caesar: "Caesar reinstated the ancient custom of decimation" Old post: "Wasn't it Crassus who brought back decimation as a punishment for cowardice during the Spartacus uprising?" "Oh yes! I'd forgotten that narration. Caesar was more known for his clemency than his brutality" In actual fact Caesar did use decimation and it was as a direct result of his clemency...Confused? Read on. After his first few victories against the alliance led by Pompey Caesar released all his defeated foes. In many cases the 'generals' he released went straight back to fighting him (Ahenobarbus was one such character). He wouldn't even confiscate their property and this lead to unrest amongst the ranks of his legions. Afterall, by all the standards of the times the legionaries would have expected to keep this preperty as spoils of war. Unrest amongst troops nearly always peaks during periods of inaction and this was the case with the IX Legion when they mutinied. Caesar came down hard on them and ordered that decimation should be the punishment of the legion. He did, however, allow himself to be talked out of this as a full scale option for the entire legion and decreed that 120 would draw lots leaving just 12 individual soldiers to face this grissly fate. It was believed, by the ultimate twelve condemnations, that the lot was rigged (eleven of the twelve were ringleaders of the uprising). When Caesar found out that one of the twelve had not even been in camp during the unrest he investigated the matter, found that a Centurian had included the innocent legionary for personal reasons, and prompty swapped the doomed innocent with the centurian who had framed him. In the battles that followed these events the IX went on to distinguish themselves in battle. Seems more to me to be military discipline and punishment veiled under the guise of decimation more than true decimation. The 10th also faced a limited form of this when the ringleading officers of its own mutiny were also executed. However it still does not seem to quite carry the same weight of Crassus' implementation of this policy. Punishing mutineers (regardless of the duress put upon them by Caesar's excessive campaigning) was a necessity and is not indicative of clemency or tyrannical execution in comparison to political matters. Consider that Caesar showed great clemency at times, but by Thapsus and Munda his attitude is decidedly different. As our own MP Cato likes to point out, ask the Gauls about Caesar's famed clemency. Arguments for either case can be effectively made simply based on the circumstances of the event and those who were the victims of brutality or recipients of clemency. At any rate the actual source material is below. Suetonius glosses over it, but Cassius Dio waxes poetically complete with speeches, as he often did. Suetonius Life of Caesar; 69 They did not mutiny once during the ten years of the Gallic war; in the civil wars they did so now and then, but quickly resumed their duty, not so much owing to any indulgence of their general as to his authority. For he never gave way to them when they were insubordinate, but always boldly faced them, discharging the entire ninth legion in disgrace before Placentia, though Pompey was still in the field, reinstating them unwillingly and only after many abject entreaties, and insisting on punish the ringleaders. Cassius Dio, Histories Book 41; 26 - 35 At Placentia some soldiers mutinied and refused to accompany Caesar longer, on the pretext that they were exhausted, but really because he did not allow them to plunder the country nor to do all the other things on which their minds were set; for their hope was to obtain from him anything and everything, inasmuch as he stood in so great need of them. Yet he did not yield, but, with a view to being safe from them and in order that after listening to his words and seeing the guilty punished they should feel no desire to transgress the established rules, he called together both the mutinous men and the others, and spoke as follows: "Soldiers, I desire to have your affection, and still I should not choose on that account to share in your errors. I am fond of you and could wish, as a father might for his children, that you may be safe, prosperous, and have a good reputation. For do not suppose it is the duty of one who loves to acquiesce in things which ought not to be done and for which it is quite inevitable that dangers and ill-repute should fall to the lot of those who do them, but rather to teach them the better way and keep them from the worse, both by admonishing and by correcting them. You will recognize that I speak the truth, if you will not estimate advantage with reference to the pleasure of the moment but rather with reference to what is permanently beneficial, and if you will avoid thinking that gratifying your desires is more noble than restraining them. For it is disgraceful to take a momentary gratification of which you must later repent, and it is absurd after conquering the enemy to be overcome yourselves by pleasures. "Why now do I say this? Because although you have provisions in abundance, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 If we're to take Cassius Dio's account seriously, the executed ringleaders got off easy--Caesar most mercilessly bored the others to death! Seriously, though, now that we've heard from Caesar, let's let Lucan speak for Caesar's wretched soldiers (Pharsalia, Book V): "Caesar, give us leave to quit your crimes. You seek the sword to slay us by land and sea; let the fields of Gaul and far Iberia, and the world proclaim how for your victories our comrades fell. For what booty is it that by an army's blood the Rhine and Rhone and all the northern lands you subdued? Civil war you give us for all these battles; such a prize! When the Senate fled trembling and when Rome was ours, what homes or temples did we spoil? Our hands reek with offence! Yes, but our poverty proclaims our innocence! What shall be the end of arms and armies? What shall be enough if Rome does not suffice? And what lies beyond? Behold these silvered locks, these nerveless hands and shrunken arms, once stalwart! In your wars is gone the strength of life, gone all its pride! Dismiss your aged soldiers to their deaths. How shameless is our prayer! Not on hard turf to stretch our dying limbs; nor seek in vain, when parts the soul, a hand to close our eyes; Not with the helmet strike the stony clod: Rather to feel the dear one's last embrace, and gain a humble but a separate tomb. Let nature end old age. And do you think we only know not what degree of crime will fetch the highest price? What you cannot dare these years have proved, or nothing; law divine nor human ordinance shall hold your hand. You were our leader on the banks of Rhine; henceforth our equal; for the stain of crime makes all men like to like. Add that we serve a thankless chief: as fortune's gift he takes the fruits of victory our arms have won. We are his fortunes, and his fates are ours to fashion as we will. Boast that the gods shall do your bidding! No, your soldiers' will shall close this war." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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