Chariots

[Aurelianus]

I remember a couple of years ago thinking that in the early days of Rome that chariots were used in warfare, and I also vaguely remember reading something on the web referring to an invasion of Britain (one of Caesars I think) that went something like this:

 

...the Romans, having long ago abandoned the use of chariots for use in war, were at a loss at how to combat the Britons in...

 

I do not recall if it was quoting a contemporary source, and I have tried hard to find the page, but cant. I suspect it was not a brilliant one as I didn't make a note of it, but nevertheless, it still leaves me wandering where I got the idea from and where they did... Perhaps it was referring to the period of myths and legends before and after the founding of Rome.

 

If the Romans had used chariots would they have been compatible with the legion, or were they too specialised for open plains?

 

Can anyone shed any light on my youthful misconceptions that have come to haunt me?

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

The only chariots I have heard of Romans using were oxen-led anti-elephant chariots during the war with Pyrrhus.

[phil25]

The Romans certainly did not use "chariots" in warfare in late Republican or early imperial times.

 

The Hollywood epics, such as Fall of the Roman Empire, Quo Vadis and Cleopatra, which show officers using chariots like sports cars, are not accurate.

 

Chariots, so far as I am aware were used in a "heavy" form by triumphing generals, and in a "light" form (with various numbers of horses) by charioteers in the circus. That's it.

 

There is a strange sculpture in the Vatican Museum (Room of the Quadriga as I recall) which shows a "chariot" but last I read it was a C18th forgery, made up of various bits of broken statuary and sculpture, including - as it's body - a marble throne belonging to some goddess!!

 

I cannot recall any other depictions of chariots, outside things like the Arch of Titus showing the victorious commander.

 

Phil

[Primus Pilus]

This does not appear to be what you are looking for, but may help...

 

Caesar Gallic Wars Book 4: 33, 34

[4.33]Their mode of fighting with their chariots is this: firstly, they drive about in all directions and throw their weapons and generally break the ranks of the enemy with the very dread of their horses and the noise of their wheels; and when they have worked themselves in between the troops of horse, leap from their chariots and engage on foot. The charioteers in the mean time withdraw some little distance from the battle, and so place themselves with the chariots that, if their masters are overpowered by the number of the enemy, they may have a ready retreat to their own troops. Thus they display in battle the speed of horse, [together with] the firmness of infantry; and by daily practice and exercise attain to such expertness that they are accustomed, even on a declining and steep place, to check their horses at full speed, and manage and turn them in an instant and run along the pole, and stand on the yoke, and thence betake themselves with the greatest celerity to their chariots again.

 

[4.34]Under these circumstances, our men being dismayed by the novelty of this mode of battle, Caesar most seasonably brought assistance; for upon his arrival the enemy paused, and our men recovered from their fear; upon which thinking the time unfavorable for provoking the enemy and coming to an action, he kept himself in his own quarter, and, a short time having intervened, drew back the legions into the camp. While these things are going on, and all our men engaged, the rest of the Britons, who were in the fields, departed. Storms then set in for several successive days, which both confined our men to the camp and hindered the enemy from attacking us. In the mean time the barbarians dispatched messengers to all parts, and reported to their people the small number of our soldiers, and how good an opportunity was given for obtaining spoil and for liberating themselves forever, if they should only drive the Romans from their camp. Having by these means speedily got together a large force of infantry and of cavalry they came up to the camp.

[Aurelianus]

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, I'm familiar with Caesar's accounts of the Britons, Dio Cassius I think might have been quoted... not so contemporary, and I'm not at all familiar with them (something I need to rectify) ahh well ill go and do some googling.

I suspect it will remain an enigma, one that will be solved at a completely random and inappropriate moment 30 years from now...

 

edit: wasnt Cassius Dio .

Edited November 6, 2006 by Aurelianus

[Pantagathus]

Early Romans (Archaic) did use them as did most Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age Western Europeans. Many of the early aristocratic tombs in Latinum contained chariots.

 

What that means however, is that probably by the 5th Century BC, a typical Roman would indeed not know what to make of a chariot on the battlefield.

[DecimusCaesar]

I was curious about this very subject a while ago, I knew that the Romans did not use chariots in warfare in Republican and Imperial times but I had always wondered if during the early Iron age/Etruscan eras if chariots were used in Italy.

[phil25]

Historically, there are only a few ways of using the chariot in war:

 

a) to deliver the "hero" to the battlefield - the warrior then fights on foot - ie a "noble" resource given the expense.

 

to use the chariot in single combat - "hero" agaisnt "hero".

 

c) as a fighting platform for archery (the ancient Egyptians did this).

 

d) like cavalry for use in pursuit, for rapid transit

 

e) in a mass charge (again like cavalry) as it is thought the ancient Brits employed them.

 

Before the introduction of the stirrup the chariot was a useful alternative to cavalry, but was relatively easy to counter - pits, stakes, the phalanx; could be unmanoeuverable, so if expected could be "guided" into particular "lanes" and neutralised.

 

Even in quite early times the Romans seem to have preferred cavalry - the "equestrian" status existed early, as did the concept of the "public horse". Early on, the Romans were probably too poor economically to be able to afford a chariot force.

 

But do I not recall a myth about Tarquinius Superbus running over someone (his predecessor) in a chariot? So it was a vehicle of which the Romans retained some memory.

 

Phil

[Julius Ratus]

...the Romans, having long ago abandoned the use of chariots for use in war, were at a loss at how to combat the Britons in...

 

The Romans did quite well against the Selucid Chariots at Magnesia if I remember corectly.

[WotWotius]

In his early histories, Livy refers to characters such as Romulus using chariots. I will find a quote when I have time.

[longbow]

A little off topic but did anyone see the Time Team episode from the Colchester Circus?Robert Hurford made a four horse racing Chariot!I was quite surprised by the speed he got up to,allthough he did crash once

[spittle]

The idea of attaching Scythes to the wheels is another Hollywood invention. There is no evidence that this was ever done.

 

Even if Chariots were no longer used for warfare (except in Britain/Ireland) were they still made and used for entertainment? Chariot races (like the famous scene from Ben Hur) or historically incorrect re-enactments of battles (Gladiator)???

[phil25]

The Roman racing chariot was a very light vehicle - in some sculptures it is little more than a place for the driver to put his feet, which perhaps demonstrates how they were PERCEIVED rather than actually were.

 

I don't think the remains of any have ever been found, so we have to base reconstructions on the interpretation of paintings and reliefs.

 

Phil

[Julius Ratus]

The idea of attaching Scythes to the wheels is another Hollywood invention. There is no evidence that this was ever done.

 

I am pretty sure the Persians and the Selucids used scythed chariots. If I can find proof I will write back later, unless someone else beats me too it.

[DecimusCaesar]

In the 'De Rebicus Bellicis' an anonymous Roman writer proposed to the Emperor Valens sometime between 367 and 369, that the Romans should used scythed chariots being drawn by cataphractii, that would chase down and slash the hamstrings of the fleeing enemy. This same man proposed using a 'carriage ballista', that would carry a extremly powerful ballista to the battlefield, that could shoot a missile a distance "twice the length of the Danube." This was not the Chariot-ballista that we see in Rome: Total War: Barbarian Invasion, rather it was just a ballista being drawn slowly on a back of a cart.

 

There is no evidence to show that either of these two ideas were used, they probably were not, but it does go to show that the Romans were toying with the idea of using chariots in warfare at one time.

 

Great picture Longbow. It reminds me of an episode of Meet the Ancestors where they reconstructed a British War-Chariot of the first century BC and demonstrated it use by riding by cut-outs of Roman soldiers while hurling javelins at them. It was more effective than I originally thought.

Edited November 8, 2006 by DecimusCaesar