Legacies Of Hellas.

[Ursus]

Hellenism means different things to different people. It can mean the archaic warrior values of Homer's heroes. The heady intellectualism of philosophy. The world denying mysticism of Orpheus and Pythagoras. The drunken mania of Dionysus. The democracy of Athens, the militarism of Sparta, or the monarchial grandeur of Ptolemaic Egypt. Pagans, Christians and Agnostics alike can point to Hellas for religious origins.

 

 

Literature, Art, philosophy. religion, science and math, politics - there is a wide range from which to choose. What does Hellenism mean to you? Which of its legacies do you internalize?

[Rameses the Great]

Its technology. How it was able to take average knowledge and elevate it into the making of crossbows and Greek fire. People such as Archimedes, and many more scientists who made Greece a very great nation.

[Pantagathus]

Setting aside the word game and focusing on Ursus' question I would have to say my favorite aspect is that they were the first people to document and glorify the 'average' man's accomplishments apart from that of their kings and rulers.

[Julius Ratus]

The Hellenes were, in my opinion, the fathers of western civilization. They influenced most European civilizations in one way or another. They influenced the Macedonians who would conquer much of the known world. They influenced the Romans who would in turn influence Europe for a long time after the fall of their own empire. Through the Byzantines they influenced the Slavs and the Motherland. The Greeks gave us the vowel. While the Phoenicians "invented" the alphabet, it was the Greeks who spread it into this part of the world. Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Russia all use alphabets based closely on the Greek one and even the one I amusing now I based to some extent on Greek. Their philosophy influenced many modern religions, science, and many laws.

 

My two denarii

[M. Porcius Cato]

To me, the funeral oration by Perikles is the best statement of those Hellenic values--rationality, individualism, and political freedom--that make the world a place fit for human life. All the humanities are just a footnote to Perikles' oration.

[Ursus]

"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance, and lovers of wisdom without effiminancy. Wealth to us is not mere material for vainglory but opportunity for achievement; and we think poverty nothing to be ashamed of unless one makes no attempt to overcome it. Our citizens attend to both public and private duties and do not allow absorption in their own affairs to diminish their knowledge of the City's business. We differ from other states in regarding the man who keeps aloof from public life not as "private" but as useless; we decide or debate, carefully and in person, all matters of policy, and we hold, not that words and deeds go ill together, but that acts are foredoomed to failure when undertaken undiscussed. For we are noted at once for being most adventurous in action and most reflective beforehand. Other men are bold in ignorance, while reflection will stop their going forward. But the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what lies before them, glory and danger alike - and yet go forth to meet it."

 

 

I agree the speech has a certain merit. :-)

[AEGYPTUS]

When I think of Hellenisum I generally think of Alexander the Great and hsi achivments. Also I think of Democracy, Greek philosophy, Greek Drama. It is amzing how much the achieved of the course of Greek history!!

[Julius Ratus]

I agree the speech has a certain merit. :-)

 

I agree. Thucydides was a wonderful speech writer, eh?

[Ursus]

Whoever wrote it, I give them kudos.

[Ursus]

I deleted the section of this thread where there was a useless semantic quibble over "Hellenism."

 

Perhaps we can revisit the original question.

[Ursus]

No takers? Very well.

 

Let me go on record then as saying what I admire most about Ancient Greece is the aesthetic qualities which went on to influence the Romans (either directly, or through Etruscan middelmen). The art, architecture, literature and mythology is breathtaking, and the Roman empire would have been much poorer without it.

[Segestan]

Hellenic culture was, generally from architecture , sciences etc, was a superior one compared to the world at large that was , generally speaking --uncivilized. THe world was Tribes struggling for order. That is to say the tribal cultures were less advanced than the city states in the ideas of Laws and Order , and with ones written of personal moral Justice as the foundation of that code. The Illuminated Cult at Samothrace was a very big influence on Hellenism.

But it could also be said : The Hellens due to their ever constant conflicts of self-interest ; kept the Roman Republic from advancing to the next phase of Social evolution. It was the Greeks who brought much of the moral decay to Rome , it was the Greeks who sold the human masses into bondage at Delos , 10,000 souls per-day sold into bondage after Carthage. The Greeks were a huge reason slavery lasted as long as it did. Though clearly Not the Only reason. But to Give credits of such Granduer to the Hellens , without mention of the acts of terror and human bondage committed by the Greeks is unjust. They also conquested others for Taxation and slavery.

[civis]

To me it is fairly simple. Anyone who has not read First Democracy should do so immediatly. It is an indepth disscussion of Athenian Democracy. Athenian Democaracy is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Greeks. If you are gonna talk ethics you have to go to the Romans and Stoisim but if you want good government you have to listen to the Greeks.

[M. Porcius Cato]

To me it is fairly simple. Anyone who has not read First Democracy should do so immediatly. It is an indepth disscussion of Athenian Democracy. Athenian Democaracy is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Greeks. If you are gonna talk ethics you have to go to the Romans and Stoisim but if you want good government you have to listen to the Greeks.

 

I think you've got it backwards--if you want good ethics, talk to Aristotle; if you want good government, talk to Cicero.

 

Athenian democracy--though better than the governments that preceded it--had no checks or balances on the popular vote. Thus, when the people foolishly followed a demogogue like Alcibiades or Cleon, the whole state suffered. When the people decided they didn't like someone (e.g., that rube who voted to exile Aristides the Just because he was sick of hearing about "Aristides the Just", or the rotten fools who voted to execute Socrates), they had the first and last word on the innocent's fate. Worst of all, the people had a direct role in the military, including the power to execute admirals, to direct military strategy, and so forth. This is the sort of lunacy that led to the ill-fated invasion of Sicily.

 

In contrast, the Roman system had a mixed constitution: although the people had the final word on legislative matters and treaties, they could not serve on juries without meeting necessary qualifications, nor could they propose and vote on any legislation that just happened to catch their fancy in an assembly, and once they elected a consul, the consul was free to direct his armies as mandated by the Senate, which also served the critical function of sanctioning legislation brought before the people. Of course, the Roman people--through their tribunes--had means to check the Senate and to which to appeal the decisions of a magistrate too. Thus, the system as a whole was much more conservative. And when it comes to the State's use of physical force, that's a good thing.

[civis]

I'll take Plato over Aristotle any day but that is a diffrent debate. Actually one of the main themes of the book is that on instances like you mention the government did go awry they were not the norm. I do not want to go into the whole cheaks and balances thing but in the description he gives of the Athenina system there were cheaks and balances even if occasionaly they did not work properly. For example there was a body of citizens chosen by lot every year if im not mistaken, who saw proposed legislation before it went to the Assembly and who got rid of the 'unconstitutional' stuff. The Sicilian campaign was a screw up, no one can deny that, however given the sheer unconventenal-ness(if thats a word which i doubt) of that war bad things were bound to happen.

 

However I will grant you that men like Cicero did have a good concept of how government should work. And I will preemptivley agree that how government functions during war time is a more telling thing than how it does at peace. One thing I have always thought was that the Roman masses always seemed far more likely to be swayed than Athenian audiences, with the exceptions like the mass execution of the Admirals. Maybe Im not reading the right sources, and you can correct me.