What Was The First 'civilisation'?

[edgewaters]

Interestingly, this criterion would exclude some of the cultures of Mesoamerica and Peru, as their cities do not seem to have any public buildings apart from temples, and no signs of agricultural surplus being collected and redistributed amongst citizens. They were, by definition, villages - albeit very populous ones.

 

 

Peruvian cities have had public buildings from the first examples, for instance the early site at Caral, which features an amphitheatre and several large plazas - likely the site of marketplaces (in addition to numerous temple-pyramids), since Caral was at the centre of a trade network.

 

Most Mayan "cities" featured a large plaza in the middle of the temple complex which was used as a marketplace. Mayan "cities", however, don't really qualify as cities, since an "acropolis" with public buildings is often all there is - with dwellings scattered rurally around the site.

 

In either case, economic activity was certainly different than that of villages, with trade (or tribute) and the manufacture of luxury and trade goods taking place on a large scale.

[spittle]

Please state the source of the recent evidence you refer too.

 

Ancient Egypt

 

You can see Egyptian society started in 5500 BC, not 3100 BC.

 

Link

 

The issue is very debatable. The oldest known city is Sumer, but the Egyptians started urban planning well before the Mesopatamians did.

 

As you say it is very debatable, We always seem to get back to the question of what exactly constitutes 'civilisation'.

We would have to agree on the definition of civilisation before attempting to answer which was the earliest and i suspect it would not be an easy set of factors to agree upon.

[Rameses the Great]

If we define the emergence of civilization by the emergence of true urban settlements, with economic activities distinct from villages (which disqaulifies Catal Hoyuk), then Egypt didn't really develop one until 3500-3300; there simply aren't any truly urban sites prior to this.

 

The first pyramid ever built was by the Egyptians in 4000 BC, a mud tomb in Saqqara. There had to be a good amount of technology and intelligence prior to the date 3300 BC. The pharaoh era in Egypt started as early as 5000 BC.

[Gaius Octavius]

In memory of Sybil Mohly-Nagy.

 

http://www.crystalinks.com/ziggurat.html

[edgewaters]

If we define the emergence of civilization by the emergence of true urban settlements, with economic activities distinct from villages (which disqaulifies Catal Hoyuk), then Egypt didn't really develop one until 3500-3300; there simply aren't any truly urban sites prior to this.

 

The first pyramid ever built was by the Egyptians in 4000 BC, a mud tomb in Saqqara. There had to be a good amount of technology and intelligence prior to the date 3300 BC. The pharaoh era in Egypt started as early as 5000 BC.

 

 

The step-pyramid at Saqqara ... the first Egyptian pyramid ... was built by Djoser around 2650 BC.

 

If you're talking about mastabas in the necropolis at Saqqara, these are definately not pyramids, and don't date back earlier than the First Dynasty, c. 3100 BC.

 

All the tombs at Saqqara - pyramids, mastabas, and other - are listed here:

 

http://www.narmer.pl/map/sakkara_en.htm

 

To which one do you refer?

Edited February 22, 2007 by edgewaters

[Rameses the Great]

Pyramid of Saqqara. Also note this was the 4th dynasty in Egypt. Egypt came out of the Neolothic around 4000 and 4500 BC, and started making these monuments.

[edgewaters]

Pyramid of Saqqara.

 

 

That's the step pyramid of Djoser (c. 2600s BC), and it is NOT from 4000 BC as you claimed. It isn't even from the pre-Dynastic period at all, its from the 3rd Dynasty.

 

Egypt came out of the Neolothic around 4000 and 4500 BC, and started making these monuments.

 

Show me an Egyptian monument of 4500BC, then. The only things dated to 4500 BC in Egyptian archaeology are some knapped flint, postholes for huts, beads, woven mats, skin drums, copper axeheads, etc.

Edited February 22, 2007 by edgewaters

[Rameses the Great]

That's the step pyramid of Djoser (c. 2600s BC), and it is NOT from 4000 BC as you claimed. It isn't even from the pre-Dynastic period at all, its from the 3rd Dynasty.

 

It's from the 4th dynasty and as you said it was not from the pre-dyanstic era so Egypt is older then you claim.

 

Show me an Egyptian monument of 4500BC, then. The only things dated to 4500 BC in Egyptian archaeology are some knapped flint, postholes for huts, beads, woven mats, skin drums, copper axeheads, etc.

 

Dig Offers a Rare Peek at 'Pre-Dynastic' Egypt .

 

 

Egypt had at least a partly agricultural economy as early as 5000 B.C., and archaeologists have uncovered royal tombs dating back as far as 4000 B.C. By the time Narmer unified Egypt from his base in southern Hierakonpolis, local chieftains had evolved into the kings of Upper and Lower Egypt.

[edgewaters]

It's from the 4th dynasty and as you said it was not from the pre-dyanstic era so Egypt is older then you claim.

 

You skimmed your page without actually reading it. Djoser is from the 3rd Dynasty; his step-pyramid influenced tomb styles of the 4th Dynasty.

 

It's from the 2600s BC. This is extraordinarily well-established.

 

Dig Offers a Rare Peek at 'Pre-Dynastic' Egypt .

 

 

Egypt had at least a partly agricultural economy as early as 5000 B.C., and archaeologists have uncovered royal tombs dating back as far as 4000 B.C. By the time Narmer unified Egypt from his base in southern Hierakonpolis, local chieftains had evolved into the kings of Upper and Lower Egypt.

 

Uhhmmm ... elite tumuli are not evidence of "civilization", and they aren't "monuments" either. Nor is a "partly agricultural economy" - they probably mean limited horticulture. Horticulture by this time was already several thousand years old in some remote corners of Europe! It probably goes back considerably farther than 5000 BC in Egypt. It had spread far and wide. However, tribes ruled by chieftains (as they were chieftains, according to your link, prior to the dynastic era) with ritual burials, some agriculture, beads, copper axes, drums, etc .... that's not civilization. It's an advanced pre-urban tribal society.

 

Your own link actually refutes your claim, since there are no temples present at the site earlier than 3400 BC.

 

Again, show me a monument dated to a time that supports your claim. A tomb is not necessarily a monument. And not all monuments indicate civilization (e.g. Stonehenge).

Edited February 22, 2007 by edgewaters

[Rameses the Great]

I have shown my claim. Either way, Sumerians did not build ziggaurats until 2500 BC. In order to have any type of economy, either barter or agriculture, shows a sign of civilization and organization in itself. How were they able to collect the taxes? What would these taxes be used for?

 

Egypt did attain civilization before 3000 BC. What you call civilization is up to you, but they were developed well before that time.

Edited February 23, 2007 by Rameses the Great

[Gaius Octavius]

Perhaps, the question that should be asked is: What is the earliest civilization presently known.

Hasn't P.P. just posted about Uruk?

[edgewaters]

I have shown my claim. Either way, Sumerians did not build ziggaurats until 2500 BC. In order to have any type of economy, either barter or agriculture, shows a sign of civilization and organization in itself. How were they able to collect the taxes? What would these taxes be used for?

 

There are ziggurats earlier than 2500BC actually ... not much earlier though ... 2900BC for the Tappeh Sialk ziggurat.

 

However, ziggurats were not the first sign of civilization in the Fertile Crescent ... the first sign is large urban settlements with massive walls, such as Uruk or Jericho. Ziggurats did not appear until Mesopotamian civilization was quite old. In Egypt, by contrast, the onset of urban life produced rapid advancement at breathtaking speed; in the matter of a few centuries Egypt had gone from simple garden/fishing villages to having metropolises rivalling those in Mesopotamia, and was easily keeping pace with them technologically. Still, the fact remains, that cities first appeared in Mesopotamia.

 

Taxes were definately being collected in 4000BC in Uruk. You don't need a ziggurat to collect taxes. They would be used for the same things taxes were always used for in the ancient world - public works, paying officials, paying for the military, building defences, etc.

 

It is not true that "any type of economy" qualifies as civilization. Many primitive tribal groups have a subsistence/barter economy. Look at Otzi the Iceman. His artifacts indicate a certain sophistication, such as his copper axe (which must have been smelted and smithed). An agricultural economy is present, because his stomach contained processed wheat bran, possibly from bread. But we don't call what was going on in Europe at that period a "civilization".

[Rameses the Great]

edgewaters,

 

I agree Mesopatamia is older then Egypt, but not that much older. The Nile Valley Civilization is almost as old as Mesopatamia's.

[edgewaters]

edgewaters,

 

I agree Mesopatamia is older then Egypt, but not that much older. The Nile Valley Civilization is almost as old as Mesopatamia's.

 

 

True ... the difference is, with the exception of a handful of remarkable sites like Ur, one of only a few centuries and a gap that is closed very rapidly by the Egyptians. By about 3100BC they are neck and neck in terms of development, and this is before either of them have begun building pyramids or ziggurats. Both develop writing around the same time, both begin monumental construction around the same time, and Egypt is the first to achieve lasting political unity in the form of a stable state, under Narmer (c. 3000BC). Mesopotamia doesn't get there until Sargon's unification under the Akkadian Empire (c. 2300BC) and that doesn't last long.

 

The only real difference is that the first cities sprung up in and around Mesopotamia, and there are really only a handful of those in 4000BC.

[Northern Neil]

A Spanish scientific team found one of the world's oldest cities, thought to be about 5,500 years old, in Syria. The discovery, based on pottery fragments and other ceramics found at the site, was announced in Madrid by two of the scientists in charge of the investigation, Ignacio Marquez of Spain's CSIC scientific research council and Juan Luis Moreno of the Universidad de La Coru