What Was The First 'civilisation'?

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

I'm going to give an ethical answer. There has always been one and only one civilization that humanity has only known, and it is just the race of mankind itself. Whatever different cultures that had 'evolvled,' their society still share the same characteristics that might differ in meaning but still the same purpose of progressing the betterment of human civilization.

[Princeps]

What about Mohenjo-Daro (?) a city in todays Pakistan. I have very vague memories of archeaologist's going on about this being the oldest 'city' yet found anywhere.

 

Did I dream this or have others also heard of it?

 

Yes, saw a documentary on that a few years back and was very impressed indeed (I can't remember much about the people, just that I was impressed!). The programme did make a number of impressive claims about the sofistication and advanced nature of this culture.

[Andrew Dalby]

I'm going to give an ethical answer. There has always been one and only one civilization that humanity has only known, and it is just the race of mankind itself. Whatever different cultures that had 'evolvled,' their society still share the same characteristics that might differ in meaning but still the same purpose of progressing the betterment of human civilization.

That's all true, and (for example) hunter-gatherer peoples have a lot to teach the rest of us if we listen, and we don't listen enough; but I still think history is worth doing and, as part of history, it can be useful to know where, when and by what processes complex civilizations developed.

 

Mohenjo-Daro, in the Indus Valley, is impressive but it's not as old as the earliest developments in the Fertile Crescent, Sumer, s.e. Turkey, etc.

 

Early developments in China are even more recent (I mean, we're talking about 3500 years ago or more, but still ...). The oldest surviving Chinese literature is from around 600 to 500 BC (very similar date to Greek in fact). But very likely something existed earlier, because the earliest Chinese writing is from 1000 years earlier still, on "oracle bones" (on which short texts were written as a form of predicting the future). (About 1500 BC; again, very similar date to the first Linear B texts in Greek). I haven't heard that town life etc. has been found in China any earlier than that (others will correct me if I'm wrong) but of course it could depend on the materials used. If you built towns out of wood, as you well might in the lower Yangtze valley, very little might survive.

[DecimusCaesar]

What about Mohenjo-Daro (?) a city in todays Pakistan. I have very vague memories of archeaologist's going on about this being the oldest 'city' yet found anywhere.

 

Did I dream this or have others also heard of it?

 

 

 

I don't know about Mohenjo-Daro being the oldest but it does exist - it was a city that measured up to 3 three miles in length and was built on the Indus plain . It was one of the oldest in the world but I believe that Catal Huyuk in Turkey or Jericho in Israel have also been named as candidates for the oldest cities.

 

Either way Glyn Daniel's book 'First Civilisations' which is pretty out of date by now (published 1967) lists Sumeria, Egypt, The Indus Valley and The Meso-American Civilisations as being the oldest in the world. If you consider the Minoan Civilisation to be the oldest eastern European civilisation that takes you to around 1700 BC. The oldest Western european culture might considered to be the Hallstat Celts who might have appeared around 1200 BC (around the era of the Trojan War).

Edited October 20, 2006 by DecimusCaesar

[Kosmo]

If you use funeral as a indication you must consider Neanderthalians and other hominides.

[spittle]

I use it as one of several criteria but the urge to 'respectfully' dispose of the dead shows a civilised side IMHO.

[phil25]

I can't see any sense or value in the approach - there's only one civilisation...

 

Sorry but that avoids the question, may well be a misplaced (and very PC C21st) assumption, and most important fails to analyse or consider the implications.

 

Personally I don't think that trends and attempts to ignore differences between sexes or races are moral, useful or well-based. At worst they are condescending.

 

Ask an Egyptian whether an Atlantean was responsible for their ancient culture, and you'll soon get an answer. They are proud (rightly) of their heritage, and dismissive of western attempts (Bayval, Hancosk etc) to argue that they could not have done it themselves.

 

But then, I suppose, we all know that it's the British who have to take the credit for the achievements of the US Founding Fathers. (Don't feel you have to pursue that JOKE!!).

 

There was no ONE human race in 5000BC or whenever, and is not now. It's wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

 

All MHO of course,

 

Phil

[edgewaters]

With the Ancient Egyptians, because they did start civilization as Sumeria did at the same time. If you want to start it on the Middle East go with Sumeria. If you want to go with the influence of the world go with Egypt. (Not the entire world, the Middle East, Greece, Asia, Kush.)

 

Sumerians - or Mesopotamian civilization - is considerably earlier. By the time the Sumerians were raising their first ziggurats and had established urban life, Egypt was still in its infancy, a collection of tribal villages living mainly off hunting and fishing. The Late Predynastic period in Egypt - the first appearance of anything advanced enough to be called a civilization - is dated no earlier than 3100 BC, while the Ubaid Period of Mesopotamia originates around 5300 BC.

[Rameses the Great]

Sumerians - or Mesopotamian civilization - is considerably earlier. By the time the Sumerians were raising their first ziggurats and had established urban life, Egypt was still in its infancy, a collection of tribal villages living mainly off hunting and fishing. The Late Predynastic period in Egypt - the first appearance of anything advanced enough to be called a civilization - is dated no earlier than 3100 BC, while the Ubaid Period of Mesopotamia originates around 5300 BC.

 

The gap is not that large, and recent evidence had pointed to it starting in Egypt before Mesopatamia.

[spittle]

Sumerians - or Mesopotamian civilization - is considerably earlier. By the time the Sumerians were raising their first ziggurats and had established urban life, Egypt was still in its infancy, a collection of tribal villages living mainly off hunting and fishing. The Late Predynastic period in Egypt - the first appearance of anything advanced enough to be called a civilization - is dated no earlier than 3100 BC, while the Ubaid Period of Mesopotamia originates around 5300 BC.

 

The gap is not that large, and recent evidence had pointed to it starting in Egypt before Mesopatamia.

 

Please state the source of the recent evidence you refer too.

[Julius Ratus]

If you use funeral as a indication you must consider Neanderthalians and other hominides.

 

 

Its an interesting thought, and I for one believe that the Neanderthals had compex cultures and maybe even small settlements, though I have no evidence to prove this, there probably is none.

 

I usually define a civilization as having permanant settlements, but this can be tricky. For example, the Mongols had few settlements, but I would consider the Mongols to have had a civilization. This is an interesting question.

[Rameses the Great]

Please state the source of the recent evidence you refer too.

 

Ancient Egypt

 

You can see Egyptian society started in 5500 BC, not 3100 BC.

 

Link

 

The issue is very debatable. The oldest known city is Sumer, but the Egyptians started urban planning well before the Mesopatamians did.

[edgewaters]

Please state the source of the recent evidence you refer too.

 

Ancient Egypt

 

You can see Egyptian society started in 5500 BC, not 3100 BC.

 

Link

 

The issue is very debatable. The oldest known city is Sumer, but the Egyptians started urban planning well before the Mesopatamians did.

 

 

Ancient Egypt

 

You can see Egyptian society started in 5500 BC, not 3100 BC.

 

Link

 

The issue is very debatable. The oldest known city is Sumer, but the Egyptians started urban planning well before the Mesopatamians did.

 

From your link:

 

Between 5500 and 3100 BC, during Egypt's Predynastic Period, small settlements flourished along the Nile.

 

Villages. Not "urban planning". Society? Yes. Every inhabited region had society. Many had small riverside settlements, but there's nothing particularly remarkable about villages by this period.

 

During this same period, city-states have emerged in Mesopotamia. By the Uruk period, they are 200-300 acres in size, often fortified, with populations reaching 25 000.

 

If we define the emergence of civilization by the emergence of true urban settlements, with economic activities distinct from villages (which disqaulifies Catal Hoyuk), then Egypt didn't really develop one until 3500-3300; there simply aren't any truly urban sites prior to this.

[Northern Neil]

If we define the emergence of civilization by the emergence of true urban settlements, with economic activities distinct from villages (which disqaulifies Catal Hoyuk), then Egypt didn't really develop one until 3500-3300; there simply aren't any truly urban sites prior to this.

 

Interestingly, this criterion would exclude some of the cultures of Mesoamerica and Peru, as their cities do not seem to have any public buildings apart from temples, and no signs of agricultural surplus being collected and redistributed amongst citizens. They were, by definition, villages - albeit very populous ones.

[Gaius Octavius]

According to Dr. Johnson, 'civilization' equals 'city-citizen'. Why are the Far East, Africa, the Americas, Pacific Islands and the swathe of Northern Europe/Asia not mentioned?