Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa

[P.Clodius]

What PP said... He went far in Augustus' shadow, probably further than anyone of his ancestors. Those who poke fun at Augustus' millitary abilities are blinkered and fail to see his genius. Augustus was the front man of a movement, the head of a commitee. His ability to surround himself with able individuals was unparalleled in the roman world. We all know Agrippa's millitary and building achievements, there's little left to be said, except that for an equestrian to win multiple triumphs, hold multiple consulships, to wield Tribunicia Potestas and Imperium Maius was unheard of for a man of his class, or any class for that matter. Finally, ability was allowed to shine through. Showing the world that it was indeed possible to transfer power back and forth peacefully. And why the Augustan age merits the term, Golden Age. Shame it didn't last.

[phil25]

Those who poke fun at Augustus' millitary abilities are blinkered and fail to see his genius.

 

I agree that Augustus was a good project manager/team leader - indeed the best. But of military abilities, I see not a hint. Some of the evidence might be interpreted (ie at Phillippi) to denote him a coward.

 

Phil

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

We all know Agrippa's millitary and building achievements, there's little left to be said, except that for an equestrian to win multiple triumphs, hold multiple consulships, to wield Tribunicia Potestas and Imperium Maius was unheard of for a man of his class, or any class for that matter.

 

What about Gaius Marius?

[P.Clodius]

We all know Agrippa's millitary and building achievements, there's little left to be said, except that for an equestrian to win multiple triumphs, hold multiple consulships, to wield Tribunicia Potestas and Imperium Maius was unheard of for a man of his class, or any class for that matter.

 

What about Gaius Marius?

He never held Tribunicia Potestas and was politically inept.

Edited October 11, 2006 by P.Clodius

[caldrail]

Interesting whats being said about octavians military ability. He was a leader of his own faction rather than a general and employed skillful soldiers somewhat better than some generals might. But isn't it true that the greatest leaders are not just orators or generals, but successful managers too. There are many historical fugures that rose to prominence and fell by the wayside because their management skills did not match their ambition.

[DecimusCaesar]

What you say is true a good leader isn't worth anything if he is surrounded by useless people. Augustus was lucky enough to have been friends with Marcus Agrippa, who gave him the military edge that he lacked. What might have come of his ambitions if he had given control of his military to an incompetent general? It might have been Antony in control of Rome.

 

Is there any mention made of Agrippa's own retinue? He might have been given his strategies by them.

[phil25]

Over the years I have become very suspicious of the coincidental in history.

 

That's not to say that I see murder everytime there is a convenient death!!, but often what seems to the precise right thing, also seems to occur by happenstance, I tend to look again.

 

With regard to Agrippa and Augustus was it luck that gave the former a friend who was fortunately a good general? Or did someone - Caesar maybe - arrange it?

 

Do we know how and when the two men met, or how Agrippa - and one could Maecenas - happened to be with Octavian at exactly the right time?

 

Could a military genius have spotted native talent in even a very young man?

 

Phil

[DecimusCaesar]

You might be on to something! It was rather odd that Octavian was away from Rome with the support of two able people when Julius Caesar was murdered. Suetonius tells us that Caesar had made him his heir. Perhaps it was arranged that he should be far from the city with legions nearby.

[phil25]

I don't think Caesar had an inkling he was going to die (I don't see him as suicidal for a moment), but I suppose if you are seeking to educate your heir-to-be then to have as his class-mates a soldier-in-the-making and a bright, politically-savvy lad makes sense.

 

I referred earlier to something I had read (where i do not know) of unfounded rumours that Agrippa was Caesar's illegitimate son. If verified, that might be something Agrippa himself put about later to make his claim to the principiate more solid.

 

But an alternative could be that Caesar had noted Agrippa's talent in some way and fostered him as a protege - intending he and Octavian to rise together.

 

Is anything known of Agrippa and/or Maecenas BEFORE they emerge with Octavian at Apollonia?

 

Phil

[The Augusta]

But an alternative could be that Caesar had noted Agrippa's talent in some way and fostered him as a protege - intending he and Octavian to rise together.

 

Is anything known of Agrippa and/or Maecenas BEFORE they emerge with Octavian at Apollonia?

 

Phil

 

The only snippets we have are to be found in Nicolaus of Damascus, where he states that Octavius and Agrippa were friends in 46BC and educated together. Reinhold (Marcus Agrippa, 1937) speculates from various inscriptions found in Dalmatia bearing the name of the Vipsanii that Agrippa was of Illyro-Venetian origins, although there is of course no concrete proof. We do know that his elder brother Lucius was a supporter of Cato Uticensis and fought at Thapsus on the Pompeian side. When taken prisoner he was pardoned by Caesar, due to the intercession of Octavius. Agrippa himself took part in Caesar's Spanish Campaigns of 46-45BC as a very young man. Beyond this we know nothing for certain.

[The Augusta]

Over the years I have become very suspicious of the coincidental in history.

 

That's not to say that I see murder everytime there is a convenient death!!, but often what seems to the precise right thing, also seems to occur by happenstance, I tend to look again.

 

With regard to Agrippa and Augustus was it luck that gave the former a friend who was fortunately a good general? Or did someone - Caesar maybe - arrange it?

 

Do we know how and when the two men met, or how Agrippa - and one could Maecenas - happened to be with Octavian at exactly the right time?

 

Could a military genius have spotted native talent in even a very young man?

 

Phil

 

May I state again what I said on another thread. We have the benefit of hindsight, naturally - and we must not overestimate Agrippa's influence at this time. By far the more senior soldier who was at Apollonia with Octavian was Salvidienus Rufus. It was only in 38BC when Agrippa was recalled from Gaul to take charge of the plans against Pompeius that he becomes a great military figure. Octavian's main forces at Perusia, for instance, were under the command of Rufus.

[phil25]

A valid and timely corrective, Augusta.

 

Phil