The Caesar Bloodline

[phil25]

Robert Graves (I Claudius) did the Livia as mass murdress "thing" to death (pardeon the pun).

 

There is absolutely NO evidence, other than circumstantial to support the allegation (which while fun is more for the historical novelist than the historian IMHO).

 

There is no doubt that Livia was a passionate politician, seeking to exercise power and authority well into her son's reign.

 

But Tiberius' emergence as the sole practical candidate for the principiate after Augustus' death in no way needs a programme of selective assassination to support it. Apart from anything else, Augustus' longevity explains why.

 

Mortality and life expectancy in Roman times were far higher and lower (respectively) than today. In an earlier post, I discussed the various options for the deaths of Gaius and Lucius, which in no way necessitate foul play as a reason.

 

I think Livia would have been one of the most frightening people in history to have met - formidable, puritanical, driven, clever, scheming and arrogant - but NOT, I think, homicidal.

 

Had Augustus succumbed to oneof his early and serious illnesses, or died at (say) 45 as might have been expected, then the situation could have been very different. Maybe Agrippa would have succeeded, or been regent for his son(s). maybe we would have a succession that went something like:

 

Augustus (died early)

Agrippa as regent (died)

Gaius (died young)

Lucius

Son of Lucius

 

or alternatively:

 

Augustus (died even earlier)

Marcellus (killed in renewed civil war)

Agrippa

Gaius

descendents of Gaius.

 

I invent these, not because I think they were likely, or are even arguable, simply to show that Roman history could have been VERY different had Augustus died at a younger age than he did. With civil war such a recent memory, who can say that it would not have broken out again? If one of the potential heirs had lived longer and had issue, then we might have no Tiberius (a footnote in the record perhaps like Corbulo or Aulus Plautus), no Caligula or Nero. Maybe Graves would have written, "I Lucius"!!

 

Livia had no need to act in a situation where Augustus simply outlived heir after potential heir - hence, in the context of this thread, the importance of Julia, whose bloodline things always returned to. Had Livia wanted

murder those who stood in Tiberius' way, then surely her best bet would simply to have killed Julia around the time Marcellus died. that would considerably have narrowed her husband's options. But that did not happen.

 

Conjecture - Livia as Lady Macbeth - is fun, but we sould not IMHO, let it get in the way of historical probability or the facts.

 

Phil

[spittle]

TIBERIUS

Germanicus (husband of Augustus's grand-daughter, Aggripina)

Drusus (Son of Tiberius)

Nero (Son of Germanicus)

Gemellus (Son of Drusus, Grandson of Tiberius)

CALIGULA (Great grandson of Augustus and first rate lunatic)

 

Although LIVIA takes the blame for many of the heirs premature deaths according to THE CAESARS the general of Tiberius's praetorian guards, SEJANUS, was responsible for eliminating Drusus and Nero. He was also attempting to do away with the remaining possibilities of caligula and Claudius (according to the drama) then marrying thre widow of Drusus making himself the step-father of Gemellus and regent in the event of Tiberius death.

 

From the little I know of Germanicus I feel he could have been a very popular Emperor, had he taken the purple. Being heir to the empire came with a very short life expectency during these times!

[phil25]

The political situation had changed by Sejanus' day. It is entirely likely that he had various people killed, as did Gaius, but IMHO that does not mean we can infer Livia did the same.

 

Why do we need to assume that Tiberius was murdered? He was old and ailing. And if the timing was made convenient with a pillow, is that vastly different to King George V being given an overdose of morphine in 1936, so that his death hit the more prestigeous morning and not the evening press?

 

Drusus - son of Tiberius - was almost certainly killed in pursuit of sejanus' own enigmatic plans - presumably to allow him to marry Drusilla and thus become regent for Gemellus at the right time.

 

Nero son of Germanicus (and his brother) may legitimately have been imprisoned for treason, since their mother was certainly working against Tiberius.

 

There is absolutely no firm evidence that Germanicus himself was assassinated. It is more likely that he died of natural causes while in the East. That Agrippina THOUGHT he had been killed is of only tangential relevance. It is possible that germanicus was removed by his rival for primacy in Syria -Piso - whom he had replaced and who acted rashly after Germanicus' death. But again that is not proof. the very fact that "magic" was so often quoted as the means, suggests that Germanicus' allies were unable to obtain any better proof of foul play.

 

Caligula was killed openly in a political coup, so is a different case altogether, as probably is Gemellus.

 

As to whether Germanicus would have made a good princeps is, in my view questionable. Popular and "golden" he may have been. but on my reading of his career he was often guilty of hysterical action (Rhine, Syria) and displayed poor political judgement (visit to Egypt). His wife's subsequent career suggests to me that she suffered from many of the same defects of character.

 

Phil

[spittle]

What evidence is there that Tiberius was suffocated with a pillow to finish him off?

 

If Caligula and Machro were the only ones in the room with him, who told?

[phil25]

Would medical knowledge at the time have allowed anyone to distinguish between suffocation andewth by natural causes - a face suffused with blood (I believe a hallmark of suffocation) might have been put down to a "fit"!

 

But does one really see the princeps-to-be committing murder with his own hands? Sertorius Macro maybe - but Gaius?

 

Personally, I think that Tiberius probably died from natural causes/old age, but that the announcement of the death was delayed for some days until all was in place to allow Gaius' succession. the same was done on the deaths of Augustus and Claudius.

 

Rumour would have done the rest.

 

Phil

[Andrew Dalby]

Would medical knowledge at the time have allowed anyone to distinguish between suffocation andewth by natural causes - a face suffused with blood (I believe a hallmark of suffocation) might have been put down to a "fit"!

 

But does one really see the princeps-to-be committing murder with his own hands? Sertorius Macro maybe - but Gaius?

 

Personally, I think that Tiberius probably died from natural causes/old age, but that the announcement of the death was delayed for some days until all was in place to allow Gaius' succession. the same was done on the deaths of Augustus and Claudius.

 

Rumour would have done the rest.

 

Phil

 

All we will ever have is contemporary suspicions, unless we can exhume a body (I seem to remember suspicious substances were found when Napoleon was exhumed, having died in British "care"). No certainty. And when Suetonius, or Tacitus, or Dio asserts or implies murder, we have to ask, each time, "Who would have known?" "When, and to whom, would they have spoken about it?"

 

I'm agreeing with you, Phil, in most details. On the other hand, you can't just say "does one really see the princeps-to-be committing murder with his own hands?" and dismiss it -- because, at other times and places, such things really have happened. Sons, and adoptive sons, have killed fathers.

[phil25]

I think, Andrew, that the question in my mind was - "with their own hands?"

 

Staining one's own hands with a relative's blood is quite different, I think, to having some minion or surrogate, do the deed (Richard III was long thought to have murdered various people with his own hand - all now discredited).

 

On exhumation, fine if the culture practices inhumation, but the Caesars were cremated!! It was their ashes that were interred in the Mausoleum of Augustus. All evidence gone.

 

But surely, where a man dies in advanced old age (as with Tiberius), the first assumption should be natural causes.

 

Look at Julius Caesar, lucky in some ways that the epilspsy killed him just BEFORE Casca struck - otherwise it would have almost certainly have been a case of murder!!

 

Phil

[spittle]

I am inclined to agree.

 

The killing of Tiberius just makes a better story than his natural passing from old age.

 

It also sets the scene for the impossibly mad character Caligula is portrayed has in most drama's or stories.

[The Augusta]

He and Livia had no children - I don't even recall mention of an mis-carriages or babies born only to die young. This is odd given that we know both Augustus and Livia were demonstrably capable of having children, and given the length of their married life.

 

Just a quicky to correct you Phil - there was a premature birth mentioned by Suetonius, Divus Augustus, 63, although at what stage of their marriage is not stated. Robert Graves, in what is, of course, otherwise a highly plausible tale, goes to great lengths to concoct the ridiculous excuse of Augustus being impotent with Livia due to his sense of guilt at taking her from Nero, and even deals with the Suetonius citation by stating that 'my grandmither pretended to be pregnant by him' (quoted from memory, sorry). As Augustus was something of a womaniser, a point on which the majority of sources are agreed, infertility may well have occurred at a fairly young age. Or who knows if Livia herself hadn't suffered some kind of infection that rendered her infertile? Tiberius and Julia also had a stillborn son. (Suetonius, Tiberius, 7.

[The Augusta]

The political situation had changed by Sejanus' day. It is entirely likely that he had various people killed, as did Gaius, but IMHO that does not mean we can infer Livia did the same.

 

Drusus - son of Tiberius - was almost certainly killed in pursuit of sejanus' own enigmatic plans - presumably to allow him to marry Drusilla and thus become regent for Gemellus at the right time.

 

But in an earlier post, Phil, you accuse her of disposing of Agrippa Postumus. For what its worth, my own belief is that she certainly did have something to do with the final disposal of Postumus - but that is the only death she is guilty of. Just put this down to thirty plus years of research into this amazing woman. If she did dispose of Postumus, it was a shrewd bit of business, as harsh as that may sound to us. There is nothing worse than a rival claimant.

 

However, the truth of Drusus the Younger's death is one that intrigues me still. This man was a heavy drinker, and may well have died as a result of his own addictions. What is interesting, is that this 'murder' was only revealed some time after the event, and by Apicata, Sejanus' estranged wife who had her own axe to grind. Seager and Levick make powerful cases for his death being natural, and examine the motives behind Apicata's 'revelation'. I am still not totally convinced that Drusus' death was murder - but these discussions on 'murder' or 'natural deaths' would make a fascinating thread in themselves. It is certainly easier to believe that Drusus died so that Sejanus could marry Livilla, than some of the charges laid against Livia.

 

 

What evidence is there that Tiberius was suffocated with a pillow to finish him off?

 

If Caligula and Machro were the only ones in the room with him, who told?

 

Some loose-tongued slave? Just a suggestion. But worry not, Spittle, I am only playing Devil's advocate. I fully believe that Tiberius died of his stroke and nothing else.

 

 

As to whether Germanicus would have made a good princeps is, in my view questionable. Popular and "golden" he may have been. but on my reading of his career he was often guilty of hysterical action (Rhine, Syria) and displayed poor political judgement (visit to Egypt). His wife's subsequent career suggests to me that she suffered from many of the same defects of character.

 

Phil

 

I can only say 'Hear, Hear' to that, Phil! Has there yet been a thread for the discussion of this overblown, over-praised godling?

[Primus Pilus]

I can only say 'Hear, Hear' to that, Phil! Has there yet been a thread for the discussion of this overblown, over-praised godling?

 

There is this rather old thread in which I went on a bit of a tirade regarding the Death of Germanicus

 

Though I don't think the guy I was replying to read a single one of my posts... especially those that quoted the ancients verbatim... it was quite frustrating.

[phil25]

I don't think I can have meant to "accuse" Livia of Posthumus' murder, Augusta, because i don't think it likely. But it is an option, at that stage. We know she controlled access to seals and the Government apparatus sufficiently to influence policy - so if she felt there was a loose end...

 

But my reading of Livia is as a political woman (certainly) but one who would not have used such direct methods.

 

On Drusus' death (son of Tiberius) didn't Livilla admit to his poisoning?

 

Phil

[Andrew Dalby]

As to whether Germanicus would have made a good princeps is, in my view questionable. Popular and "golden" he may have been. but on my reading of his career he was often guilty of hysterical action (Rhine, Syria) and displayed poor political judgement (visit to Egypt). His wife's subsequent career suggests to me that she suffered from many of the same defects of character.

 

I can only say 'Hear, Hear' to that, Phil! Has there yet been a thread for the discussion of this overblown, over-praised godling?

 

Germanicus is depicted as practically perfect in Robert Graves's /I Claudius/. But Graves manages to distance himself as author slightly from this portrayal, because Claudius, the narrator, is shown as hero-worshipping Germanicus, his healthy, successful, good-looking brother, who protected poor Claudius from bullying etc.

[spittle]

On the death of Augustus, when the legions in Pannonia and, more importantly, Germania started to revolt against Tiberius in favour of Germanicus as their Emperor, what chance would this rebellion have had if Germanicus had actually thrown in his full support and marched on Rome in an attempted coup?

[The Augusta]

I don't think I can have meant to "accuse" Livia of Posthumus' murder, Augusta, because i don't think it likely. But it is an option, at that stage. We know she controlled access to seals and the Government apparatus sufficiently to influence policy - so if she felt there was a loose end...

 

But my reading of Livia is as a political woman (certainly) but one who would not have used such direct methods.

 

On Drusus' death (son of Tiberius) didn't Livilla admit to his poisoning?

 

Phil

 

Forgive me, Phil - I went back and reread your post and realised that I had perhaps taken your statement out of context.

 

But can you point to the source which says that Livilla did admit to the poisoning of her husband? I can't find such an admission in Tacitus, Suetonius or even Dio - but I may have missed something.