Tobias Posted September 24, 2006 Report Share Posted September 24, 2006 G'day All I'm sure all those who have seen HBO's Rome will be familiar with Centurion Lucius Vorenus and Legionary Titus Pullo of Caesar's 13th legion. Now, i was sure that i had seen the names elsewhere before; i remembered that i had read them in the book Caesar by Colleen McCullough. In this book, they are members of Caesar's 9th legion, and they are both centurions, and they are both considerable rivals. After a bit of research, i discovered that they were mentioned in Caesar's De Bello Gallico as centurions in Caesar's 11th legion, and again as considerable rivals. It would appear that Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo have entered the eyes of literature as a pair of useful characters; the question is, who were they really? Obviously, Caesar's account in De Bello Gallico would be the most accurate record of who they were, but is there any other record of their existence? Why have these two men out of thousands of Roman soldiers stayed in the minds of history buffs? I'd be interested in your opinions on these men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted September 24, 2006 Report Share Posted September 24, 2006 Luck probably - in the same way that Caesar's commentaries have survived whereas we have lost those of others over time. McCullough and the ROME screenwriters did what good authors always do - found names and hints in the sources and then brought them to life. I doubt we will have anything more on V&P, but by a huge coincidence, the tombstone of the cavalry trooper who killed Trajan's great foe, Decabalus of Dacia was found a few years ago. The moment is shown on Trajan's column in Rome, now we have a name and know the soldier's details and career. Who could have predicted that? So you never know about V&P. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeoth Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Really, they found the tombstone? That's pretty incredible. Do you have any reference on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spittle Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 They were the only 2 'ordinary' soldiers thar Caesar mentioned. All the other folk he wrote of were powerful or influential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecimusCaesar Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Another obscure figure called 'Caius Crastinus' is mentioned by Caesar at the Battle of Pharsalus. He was a former Centurion of the Tenth legion (Caesar's favourite) who commanded a veteran unit of 120 men at the battle. He was later stabbed through the mouth and killed. Caesar personally made sure that he was given a proper burial away from the mass grave and had him honoured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Caesar's commentaries have alot of colorful stories about individual story heroics, but off the top of my head I believe that Vorenus and Pullo are the only less rank individuals mentioned by name. Like this description of the invasion of Britain for example... And while our men were hesitating [whether they should advance to the shore], chiefly on account of the depth of the sea, he who carried the eagle of the tenth legion, after supplicating the gods that the matter might turn out favorably to the legion, exclaimed, "Leap, fellow soldiers, unless you wish to betray your eagle to the enemy. I, for my part, will perform my duty to the state and my general." When he had said this with a loud voice, he leaped from the ship and proceeded to bear the eagle toward the enemy. Then our men, exhorting one another that so great a disgrace should not be incurred, all leaped from the ship. When those in the nearest vessels saw them, they speedily followed and approached the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 On the tombstone of TIBERIUS CLAUDIUS MAXIMUS, the man who killed Decebalus under Trajan, Peter conolly (well-known military illustrator and expert on Roman military subjects) published two books reconstructing his life (Oxford 1988). I can find no bibliography in either volume. The History Channel, as I recall, did a documentary on Trajan in Dacia and the evidence from the column, which mentioned the incident and the tombstone. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecimusCaesar Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Peter Connolly also illustrated the heroic antics of the Aquilifier on the shores of Britain. The Image is on the back cover of the Greece and Rome at war book. I was considering buying the 'Tiberius Claudius Maximus' books although I have hear that they are short, although as a bonus they are well illustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I think Conolly's work is brilliant and I find him inspiring. He uses Maximus as a starting point really to explore Trajanic military life. I thought them good value when I bought them years ago. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecimusCaesar Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Thanks Phil, I will buy them off Amazon shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Here's the story of Vorenus and Pullo in Caesar's words In that legion there were two very brave men, centurions, who were now approaching the first ranks, T. Pullo, and L. Vorenus. These used to have continual disputes between them which of them should be preferred, and every year used to contend for promotion with the utmost animosity. When the fight was going on most vigorously before the fortifications, Pullo, one of them, says, "Why do you hesitate, Vorenus? or what [better] opportunity of signalizing your valor do you seek? This very day shall decide our disputes." When he had uttered these words, he proceeds beyond the fortifications, and rushes on that part of the enemy which appeared the thickest. Nor does Vorenus remain within the rampart, but respecting the high opinion of all, follows close after. Then, when an inconsiderable space intervened, Pullo throws his javelin at the enemy, and pierces one of the multitude who was running up, and while the latter was wounded and slain, the enemy cover him with their shields, and all throw their weapons at the other and afford him no opportunity of retreating. The shield of Pullo is pierced and a javelin is fastened in his belt. This circumstance turns aside his scabbard and obstructs his right hand when attempting to draw his sword: the enemy crowd around him when [thus] embarrassed. His rival runs up to him and succors him in this emergency. Immediately the whole host turn from Pullo to him, supposing the other to be pierced through by the javelin. Vorenus rushes on briskly with his sword and carries on the combat hand to hand, and having slain one man, for a short time drove back the rest: while he urges on too eagerly, slipping into a hollow, he fell. To him, in his turn, when surrounded, Pullo brings relief; and both having slain a great number, retreat into the fortifications amid the highest applause. Fortune so dealt with both in this rivalry and conflict, that the one competitor was a succor and a safeguard to the other, nor could it be determined which of the two appeared worthy of being preferred to the other. Now thats bravery for you !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lucius Castus Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 In Stephen Dando-Collins' Caesars Legion the name of Centurion Titus Puleio comes up several times, as the man who led the 24th & 28th legions to Pompey and as combatant of note during the battle of Durres. I wonder if this is the same man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Name Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Here's the story of Vorenus and Pullo in Caesar's words In that legion there were two very brave men, centurions, who were now approaching the first ranks, T. Pullo, and L. Vorenus. These used to have continual disputes between them which of them should be preferred, and every year used to contend for promotion with the utmost animosity. When the fight was going on most vigorously before the fortifications, Pullo, one of them, says, "Why do you hesitate, Vorenus? or what [better] opportunity of signalizing your valor do you seek? This very day shall decide our disputes." When he had uttered these words, he proceeds beyond the fortifications, and rushes on that part of the enemy which appeared the thickest. Nor does Vorenus remain within the rampart, but respecting the high opinion of all, follows close after. Then, when an inconsiderable space intervened, Pullo throws his javelin at the enemy, and pierces one of the multitude who was running up, and while the latter was wounded and slain, the enemy cover him with their shields, and all throw their weapons at the other and afford him no opportunity of retreating. The shield of Pullo is pierced and a javelin is fastened in his belt. This circumstance turns aside his scabbard and obstructs his right hand when attempting to draw his sword: the enemy crowd around him when [thus] embarrassed. His rival runs up to him and succors him in this emergency. Immediately the whole host turn from Pullo to him, supposing the other to be pierced through by the javelin. Vorenus rushes on briskly with his sword and carries on the combat hand to hand, and having slain one man, for a short time drove back the rest: while he urges on too eagerly, slipping into a hollow, he fell. To him, in his turn, when surrounded, Pullo brings relief; and both having slain a great number, retreat into the fortifications amid the highest applause. Fortune so dealt with both in this rivalry and conflict, that the one competitor was a succor and a safeguard to the other, nor could it be determined which of the two appeared worthy of being preferred to the other. Now thats bravery for you !! Also in Caesar's recounts of the Civil War, a Titus Puleio was responsible for the 'betrayal of the Army of Gaius Antonius" (Mark Antony's younger brother). Possibly the same person? Vorenus, is not listed. Wiki claims that Pullo fought for Pompey in the Civil Wars and turned some of Caesars men over to fight for Pompey. I don't believe this us true (unless I find a credible source for this). That would of sucked :-/ We all know how bad Wiki can be though... I quite like how HBO portayed Pullo and Vorenus, it made the series quite amazing to watch and wish it never ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Also in Caesar's recounts of the Civil War, a Titus Puleio was responsible for the 'betrayal of the Army of Gaius Antonius" (Mark Antony's younger brother). Possibly the same person? Vorenus, is not listed. Wiki claims that Pullo fought for Pompey in the Civil Wars and turned some of Caesars men over to fight for Pompey. I don't believe this us true (unless I find a credible source for this). That would of sucked :-/ We all know how bad Wiki can be though... I quite like how HBO portayed Pullo and Vorenus, it made the series quite amazing to watch and wish it never ended. I think the mention in Wikipedia is a version of the same story you referred to above. It seems at that later period Pullo fought against Gaius Antonius, and therefore for Pompey; that is, assuming it's the same person (since the spelling of his name varies). If it is the same person, I think it's a bit too easy to say "that would have sucked". It was a civil war; you might well decide to oppose in a civil war a general for whom you had once fought in a war of conquest. For all sorts of reasons, from noble principle all the way to personal advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spittle Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Is it true that TITUS means big... and PULLO means small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.