Veracity Of Hbos Rome

[spittle]

Back to the parrots.

 

I have spotted a Yellow Headed Amazon and a Blue & Gold Macaw (both South American) and, in a later episode, one of the white cockatoo's that are considered pests in their native Australia.

Why the programme makers didn't use any of the many species of bird from Africa or Asia must have been an oversight but hundreds, maybe thousands, of people worked on the set and someone must have noticed this mistake long before the show was completed.

[Skarr]

PP, you raise some good points on the soldiers' fates while they were in the army.

 

My understanding is that the only exemption from the rule of 'no marriage' was for equestrian and senatorial commanders. However, they could not take a wife from the provinces they were in charge of.

 

With regard to the illegitimate children of the soldiers and the wives of the soldiers who bore those children, they had no legal entitlement to the estate of the father. However, if the father (a Roman citizen) made a will before his death and lodged this in the temple of the Vestas in Rome with their names clearly identified, they could claim part of his estate.

 

This state mostly prevailed until the arrival of Emperor Claudius, who passed a law granting Roman soldiers the same privileges that Augustus had reserved only for married citizens (where both husband and wife are Roman citizens). Most of what we know about Roman marriage laws, especially around the inheritance of children arise from papyrii documenting court cases in Egypt where children of Roman soldiers tried to claim their inheritance and were denied this, on the grounds that they were illegitimate, although their fathers were Roman citizens and had served in the legions.

[Pertinax]

The dormice however, M P Cato has me stumped (and certainly I was paying strict attention to the food scenes), I have previously alluded to a dormouse confit -perhaps AD will give hs attention to this weighty debating point?

 

According to Mary Beard (writing for the Guardian), the dormouse scene occurs roughly 30 minutes into episode one. I'm pretty sure we wrote about the dormouse in a previous thread.

 

Was this not as regards "the Dormouse Moment?" , that is the point in a given Roman themed programme when one of the main charachters is offered a dish of dormice? As a sort of sensory indicator of hoped for decadence/sophistry in that particular show? I think AA Gill in the Sunday Times made a waspish remark as to this in his review of the series.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Having reviewed a good portion of episode 1, I could find no dormice--real, simulated, or metaphorical.

 

I did note, however, that the writers use the term 'plebeian' rather loosely. Ther term had a very precise legal meaning with important political consequences: if your family was plebeian there were special offices to which you might aspire that patricians could not (e.g., the plebeian consulship, the tribune of the plebs, and so forth). By the legal standard, the Brutii were very definitely plebs--having both tribunes (M. Junius Brutus) and plebeian consuls (L. Junius Brutus) in their gens--with one L. Junius Brutus having led the "secession" of the plebs in 494.

 

Therefore, the scene in which Brutus scorns the plebeian sense of loyalty to Pompey is doubly (perhaps triply) odd. First, that he--a member of a plebeian gens--should say anything against plebeians. Second, that he should have a private and genial conversation with his father's killer. And third that he would dare make loyalty the subject of coversation with him.

 

Perhaps we're to infer that Brutus picked up his patrician haughtiness from his mother? The Servilia Caepiones were certainly blue-blooded patricians (albeit cursed by Gallic gold, according to popular belief).

[WotWotius]

Having reviewed a good portion of episode 1, I could find no dormice--real, simulated, or metaphorical.

 

That is because we do not see them until episode two: Attia offers Pullo dormice when both he and Vorenus return young Octavian to her.

[Pertinax]

Having reviewed a good portion of episode 1, I could find no dormice--real, simulated, or metaphorical.

 

That is because we do not see them until episode two: Attia offers Pullo dormice when both he and Vorenus return young Octavian to her.

 

We also have the 'savoury dormice" of the unsavoury Erastes Fulmen.

[DecimusCaesar]

There are also some inaccuracies in the militarty equipment of the legionaires. They should be wearing Montefortino helmets instead of the ones they are wearing (which seem to be designed specifcally for the show). There is also some artistic licence with the lorica hamata that is worn by Vorenus in some episodes, with it's leather shoulder pads that come down over the chest , the one worn by Pullo seems more accurate. Well at least they aren't wearing lorica segmentata!

 

In 'The Spoils' we see the soldiers getting ready for Caesar's parade and there are square shaped scutum in the background, when the ones that were in use by the legions at this time was oval. The Scutums also appear too flat and thin and are too small in size.

 

Soldiers also carry the Draco wind-sock standards during the parade, which were introduced by the Sarmatians around the Second Century AD. There is no evidence to support the tunics worn by the soldiers with the eagle insignia on it are real either, as important high-ranking soldiers who were off duty would wear (an often bland looking) tunic with a cloak slung over the shoulder that was held in place by a pin, they could use this cloak to conceal their weapons, seeing as armed and armoured soldiers were a taboo on the streets of Rome.

[DecimusCaesar]

That is because we do not see them until episode two: Attia offers Pullo dormice when both he and Vorenus return young Octavian to her.

 

This makes sense if Mary Beard saw the version that was aired on the BBC as both episode one and two had been cut down and stuck together.

 

There are more inaccuacies concerning the leather wrist guards the characters often wear, none of the legionnaires or Centurions or even high ranking officers wore these things, yet they appear in almost every depiction of Rome (including the 2002 film 'Julius Caesar'). They seem to be based off of Greek Hoplite arm guards.

 

Caesar also had a strange fashion sense according to Suetonius, "he added wrist-length sleeves with fringes to his purple-striped tunic..." yet his clothes in the series show no sign of this, even though it was rather unfashionable to do so. His cuirass is also inaccurate in some ways, especially with the eagle emblazzoned upon it. He would have probably worn a cuirass with a rhomboid motif rather than an eagle.

 

There are many others that I shall add later...

[Plautus]

Two things I wondered about:

 

- In Episodes Three and Four when around the house, Pullo and Vorennus wear something that looks like a t-shirt tunic with a black eagle seared upon it. Is that accurate? It's certainly badass looking enough to have serious merchandising potential for HBO.

 

- The death of Cato. In the show he stabs himself in the privy in a house in Utica. I recall reading he was on board a ship in the harbor. He spent most of the previous night fortifying himself by rereading Plato's comments on the afterlife. When he stabbed himself his friends got doctors to bind his wounds. But as Caesar's officers arrived to arrest him Cato thrust his fingers into his wounds and ripped them open again. "All is well with the General", he said, then died. The Getty Museum has a XVIII painting of Cato on shipboard doing this.

 

Which is the right version?

[Pertinax]

The show version is not correct. Like the reduction of overall charachter numbers and "telescoping" of personalities (Quintus as mentioned previously), this seems to be a continuty device . The version Plautus has is the version I have always taken to be correct, save I would add that he chastised a slave who tried to prevent the original suicide attempt.

 

The "Eagle" tunics are snazzy, handy go anywhere , wash the blood/wine off garments,with a rough macho styling. Ill take a dozen in XL .I mentioned in my review of "Daily Life" , that sleeping in a rough tunic and then setting about the days tasks ( till visiting the baths) was perceived as a plebian norm.If HBO havent designed one for sale we should get a UNRV version produced!

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1281

[Primus Pilus]

Two things I wondered about:

 

- In Episodes Three and Four when around the house, Pullo and Vorennus wear something that looks like a t-shirt tunic with a black eagle seared upon it. Is that accurate? It's certainly badass looking enough to have serious merchandising potential for HBO.

 

- The death of Cato. In the show he stabs himself in the privy in a house in Utica. I recall reading he was on board a ship in the harbor. He spent most of the previous night fortifying himself by rereading Plato's comments on the afterlife. When he stabbed himself his friends got doctors to bind his wounds. But as Caesar's officers arrived to arrest him Cato thrust his fingers into his wounds and ripped them open again. "All is well with the General", he said, then died. The Getty Museum has a XVIII painting of Cato on shipboard doing this.

 

Which is the right version?

 

Cato helped others escape Utica via the sea, but he stayed within the city.

 

From Plutarch Life of Cato, 65...

Next, he betook himself again to the sea and superintended the embarcation there, embracing and escorting on their way all the friends and acquaintances whom he could persuade to go. His son, however, he could not persuade to take ship, nor did he think it his duty to try to turn the young man from his purpose of clinging to his father...

He himself, however, continued to assist the rest in getting off, and to supply the needy with ways and means, and was thus engaged all through the night and the greater part of the following day.

 

From Life of Cato, 67...

Therefore, as all were dejected and silent after his discourse, Cato tried to revive their spirits and remove their suspicions by once more putting questions and expressing anxiety about what was going on, implying that he feared for those who were going away by sea, and feared, too, for those whose path lay through a barbarous and waterless desert.

 

From Life of Cato, 72...

When Caesar learned from people who came to him that Cato was remaining in Utica and not trying to escape, but that he was sending off the rest, while he himself, his companions, and his son, were fearlessly going up and down, he thought it difficult to discern the purpose of the man, but since he made the greatest account of him, he came on with his army in all haste.

[M. Porcius Cato]

I agree with Primus regarding the unanimity of ancient sources regarding the location of Cato's death. I'd also add that none of them hint that he died in a privy. He seems to have retired to his bedroom before retiring (so to speak).

[phil25]

On wrist guards, eagle stamped tunics and costume armour...

 

Designers have to take into account many things apart from strict accuracy when creating costumes and props for TV and film.

 

One of the most important is that, in close-ups and especially in films when the images are projected hugely enlarged on the screen, blandness and simplicity don't always work.

 

If you look at films closely you'll see that a shirt or a tunic will have embroidery or be of a coarse-textured material; that jackets will padded or have buttons or nails on them; that patterned materials will be used, or layers (the overlays of Vorenus' tunic may be down to this) - anything to give the camera something to linger on and to make the image interesting to the viewer.

 

Thus a bare arm of a man in Roman uniform is not as interesting as one "broken" by a wrist guard. Similarly a "torque" or necklace makes a neck/throat more "interesting" than an expanse of bare flesh.

 

Designers will also seek to create subtle (or not so) modern resonances with their audience. I suspect the legionary tunics with the stamped eagle as meant to call to mind similar equipment and style in the US Arny of the last 50 years.

 

There are many problems in designing for the Roman period - that is why the toga is so often "messed around with" - too much white can be a problem; too much monotony so we get colours etc. Directors may also deliberately wish to avoid repeating a look that has been "done" before. Hence the absolutely unhistoric design of Egypt and Egyptians in ROME. This contrasts with the more realistic - but still 60s-in-feel - look of Alexandria and the Ptolemaic court in Liz Taylor's "Cleopatra".

 

In ROME, I think the designers were also seeking to attain a "feel" of modern Middle-eastern or far-eastern cities today. Their "Subura" reminds me of the souqs of Cairo or Damascus in the squalour, colour etc.

 

One could also discuss in similar terms the simplifications and anachronisms that the screenwriters have to employ in regard to soldiers' relationships/marriage; and the exact meaning of the words patrician/plebeian. They have discarded the proper but narrow useage and replaced it by a more easily grasped one of "nobles" and "working class".

 

I suspect that this is also why Caesar in ROME does not appear to be Pontifex Maximus - too much need for explanation of Roman religeon.

 

On the whole though, I think the makers of ROME did an excellent job and made good choices. It may fall short of absolute standards of historic accuracy, but it is better than many similar shows IMHO.

 

Phil

[Pertinax]

The "Veracity of the Egyptian Court" I mention here in an appended note:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1273

 

The Producer admits plainly that the "look" is a deliberate confection of styles, meant to signal a departure from any previous film references and to try to make the Court (if not the people) look outlandish but perhaps potent with " ancient" symbolic clothing/styling. They certainly do look exotic .

 

Do we have any experts on Ptolemaic Courtly dress?

[phil25]

I'm no expert, but I have delved into the subject a little.

 

The Alexandrian court was heavily Macedonian/Greek and seems to have adopted that style - ie Hellenistic dress - himation, chiton, etc. The putative bust of the last Cleopatra seems to show her wearing the "diadem" or linen band of kingship which Alexander had taken from the Persian royal tiara/mitre-crown.

 

Royal guards would have worn Greek style armour, thopugh some celtic mercenaries might have worn their native costume.

 

Priests of the native religeon would have worn traditional dress (as from Pharaonic times).

 

Personally, although it is probably inauthentic, I have always liked the look devised for Liz Taylor's "Cleopatra" from the 60s. Not, I hasten to add her VERY 60s influenced costumes, but those of the Court, especially in the scene when Caesar is greeted on the palace steps. However, I doubt any Ptolemy ever wore the Tutankhamen inspired gear used - unless during their Coronation at Memphis. They would have worn Hellenistic gear.

 

Reliefs on temples such as that at Dendera which I have seen are, I think, misleading. They use the traditional Pharaonic trappings, but I think that is creative anachronism in action rather than a representation of reality.

 

I'd be fascinated if we do have someone here who has researched the period in depth.

 

Phil