Conquistadores

[DecimusCaesar]

Does anyone have an intrest in the Conquistadores?

 

I've been having a look at Hernan Cotrez's letters from Mexico as well as the account written by one of his fellow conquerors, Bernal Diaz and I think it's rather strange that this period of history is often downplayed (I never learnt any of it in school and there is a lack of documentaries and movies about the subject - although I do come from Britain, perhaps in the Americas they are better known?)

 

There seems to be a change in the perception of the Conquistadores in the last few years, back in their own day they were heroes fighting for King and country and bringing the word of God to the 'heathens'. Later as the native people found their voice opinions about them changed and they began to be seen as violent, greedy men who tore ancient civilizations to pieces. Now historians are reassesing them again, seeing them as no better or worse than the people they conquered, giving us the example of Aztec human sacrifice.

 

This might be true in some respects, but after looking through Las Casas' account of the destruction of the Indies he gives many examples of Conquistadores attacking and butchering peaceful settlements (giving rise to the whole Black Legend). Was Las Casas exaggerating as some people claim or was he telling the truth?

 

what is your opinion on the Conquistadores? (as a whole and as individuals eg. Pizzaro, Orellana, Cortez etc)

Edited September 12, 2006 by DecimusCaesar

[docoflove1974]

I'm interested in the Conquistadores as a matter of history, but perhaps moreso in the role of the Jesuits and other religious figures who came into contact with the indigenous population. I seem to recall a college course on Mexican culture which started out with documentation of the Mayan calendar and language...done by the Jesuit priests. Language policies in general really interest me, but in particular in the past 3000 years.

[Pertinax]

This is a good read:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Penguin-History-La...8&s=gateway

 

the history of the Southern Americas is rather interesting , if horrific, the very late establishment of the state of Argentiana is surprising , the Chaco War is a ghastly episode,The Uruguay deserves great consideration...on and on it goes . For cinematic "popular" culture Aguirre Wrath of God has a ghastly touch of flyblown reality about it:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aguirre-Wrath-God-...8&s=gateway

[Gaius Octavius]

How about a Jesuit Empire in South America?

 

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-10076.html

Edited September 12, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[DecimusCaesar]

Thanks Pertinax!

Oh, yes! I forgot about Aguirre: wrath of God, I have it on DVD - although the DVD productions is a pretty poor quality one, not like the Werner Herzog DVD collection. I must have been thinking of Conquistadores vs Aztecs movies when I was writing it (Has there ever been a big budget Aztec film?) - Another movie I am yet to see about a Conquistador is 'Cabeza de Vaca' which follows him through his years among the native peoples.

 

I seem to recall a college course on Mexican culture which started out with documentation of the Mayan calendar and language

 

There seems to be a lot of attention on the Mayan calendar among many new ageists these days due to the fact that is coming to an end on December 21st 2012, which will supposedly bring about a worldwide change or the end of the wold according to some others.

[Gaius Octavius]

There seems to be a lot of attention on the Mayan calendar among many new ageists these days due to the fact that is coming to an end on December 21st 2012, which will supposedly bring about a worldwide change or the end of the wold according to some others.

 

12-21-2012! Good grief! 666! We're done for!

 

[DecimusCaesar]

Thanks Gaius!

 

I have read the article you've posted , it's very interesting because I've always wanted to know the true history behind the Paraguay Missions after seeing Roland Joffe's film 'The Mission'. Anyone else see the film? I think it won some awards at the Cannes film festival back in 1986, as well as winning oscars although Ennio Morricone's score (he of Sergio Leone's 'Spaghetti Westerns' fame) didn't win, which is a shame.

 

Anyone else seen the film? It's pretty slow paced and a lot of non-religious people might be put off slightly by the film's tone, but it's rather interesting.

[Favonius Cornelius]

One of the first books I ever read I remember was an account of Cortez and his conquest of the Aztec. At the time, it was just a story in a book for me, so I viewed the whole exploit as a heroic adventure, sailing the high seas in search of gold with barely a handful of men.

 

Course now I look at it and wonder at the brutality. In fact I'm pissed at the movie Disney put out about Cortez, making his expoits like a happy-go-lucky adventure, which I think is highly inappropriate and in bad taste.

[docoflove1974]

I hate having a short memory at times

 

As I recall...

 

The Conquistadores themselves tended to be second sons or batard sons of hidalgos--which, BTW, is a shortened word for hijo de algo, or 'son of something', meaning you came from a noble/rich family--and in that way could get the money needed to finance the expeditions. This is probably true for Portuguese Conquistadores, too, since the cultures and histories are so tied together, and it wouldn't shock me if it was true for other explorers. And while the conquistadores and their lieutenants were 'in the money', their crew was often whoever they could find; that is to say, they pulled from the dregs of society, as long as they could find a use for you. This explains much of the looting and ill-behavior once they got to the Americas.

 

Growing up in California, we learn quite a bit about the Jesuits and the missions they built--hells bells, it's those missions that 'created' California--and the Conquistadores. But it's not until later that you get the less-romanticized version.

 

In all honesty, the Conquistadores, and the later colonizers, saw opportunities here that they couldn't have. I've read numerous early colonial writings--letters back home to Spain, primarily--and no one seems unhappy about being on this side of the world. Many of them talk about how hard they have to work the land, how the indigenous people were either easy and nice or mean and demonic (I guess it depends on their mother-in-laws!), and--and this is key--how they feel much freer to be someone, that they are 'someone' in the 'new' society, instead of a 'no one' in Spain. Oh, sure, you'll read about someone missing something about Spain--usually someone's cooking--but they wouldn't trade what they have in the New World.

 

I know I have bibliographies somewhere...but they'll be in Spanish. I'll see what I can come up with.

[Ludovicus]

For students planning on studying Spanish in Mexico, I would often recommend "The Broken Spears" by Miguel Leon-Portilla. It's the Aztecs view of the Spanish conquest. For more about this book, see the several reviews at Amazon.com. This work is easy to read. It's derived from Indian accounts of the Conquista.

 

Another important book on the Spanish impact, this time in the Caribbean, is "Puerto Rican Tales: Legends of Spanish Colonial Times" (Mass Market Paperback)

by Cayetano Coll Y Toste, Jose Ramirez-Rivera (Translator). This work is perhaps less reliable since its based not on indigenous texts but on later interpretations of accounts by colonials. Also found at Amazon.com.

 

Also not to be missed is the more scholarly "The Conquest of Mexico: The Incorporation of Indian Societies into the Western World, 16Th-18th Centuries" (Hardcover)

by Serge Gruzinski, Eileen Corringan (Translator)

 

In some ways the Spanish used a tried and true Roman practice in order to conquer the populations of the Americas: the conquerers sowed their DNA in the native population. In North America, different approaches were used: mass deportations and extermination.

Edited September 13, 2006 by Ludovicus

[DecimusCaesar]

Great info Docoflove. It's cool to read about the conquistadores in their own words and they seem more human when you read about them 'missing the cooking' back in Spain like you said. I was reading a letter by the 'Last Conquistador' a man called Mansio Serra de Leguizamon about how he pitied the Incas (after he had taken part in their destruction) and how remorseful he was at bringinng destruction to the people who were "So free of crime and greed..."

 

I have always wondered if this was true remorse or if it was part of his last confession? It doesn't say if the letter was written on his deathed, but if he had written it to the King while still in the prime of his life he might have actually been remorseful. Did the leaders of the Conquistadores confess their remorse at the destruction of the native civilisations?

[Ursus]

Meh. The way of the world is that one group tries to take another group's land and gold. The group with the better technology usually wins. Que sera sera.

 

But unlike the Romans, the Conquistadores saw the need to eradicate other people's cultures and religions. Something I can't quite countenance, human sacrifice notwithstanding.

 

 

In the last decade or so, as part of a greater pagan movement, there has been a nascent rebirth of Aztec and Inca religious and cultural studies, with some people pouring themselves wholeheartedly into those lost faiths (albeit often with a few concessions to Catholicism). I wish them well. If they need suitable subjects to revive human sacrifice, I can suggest some of my neighbors and co-workers.

[docoflove1974]

This book by Henry Kamen does deal with a bit on the Conquistadores, including those who went to Asia, and was also good for reference. The chapters were exceedingly long, however, so beware if you should read it. But it was a great eye opener: Italian, once again, financed the world

 

Ok, I'll elaborate...basically, the Spanish didn't ever have a 'navy'...they went to their Italian provinces and their Basque neighbors and asked them to build ships, asked Italian admirals to head the army...and as a result, all the gold, silver, and precious material that the Spaniards brought back was taken off the top by their debtors. When one reads this, one realizes how the Spanish empire ceased to exist. They started with a bang, and then run themselves into relative bankruptcy.

Edited September 13, 2006 by docoflove1974

[Virgil61]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aguirre-Wrath-God-...8&s=gateway

 

What a fantastic movie, as intense as anything I've ever watched.

 

Hernan Cortez is an incredibly fascinating figure. Ruthless, energetic, driven, with great leadership skills and mean as hell, he may be among the toughest characters I've ever read up on.

[DecimusCaesar]

He might have been savage but Francisco Pizzaro was worse, maybe because he was from a humble background he felt he had to take more drastic actions to prove his control over the the rest of the Conquistadores. I think he only took the action to execute Atahuallpa after more Conquistadores arrived from Europe wanting some gold.