Agrarian Legislation In The Late Republic

[Favonius Cornelius]

Primus Pilus, I feel that this thread should be removed to 'Academia'. It should be very easy for the erudite contributors to supply sources for their arguments. A competent editor could express both sides and produce a valuable contribution to UNRV. Something that is not usually found on the 'net'.

 

Not a bad idea. Cato is always good with his sources, and as for me my job was made easy by Goldsworthy and Stephenson...though perhaps my reference format is not perfect, I'll let Primus clean that up for me!

[M. Porcius Cato]

I'm sympathetic to GO's suggestion. The topic of agrarian legislation in the late republic is immense, and I'd prefer to see a tad more light even if it results in a little more heat.

 

The basic outline of the topic isn't that immense: the agrarian legislation of the late republic comprises only the lex Thoria, the lex Iulia agraria, and the lex Iulia agraria Campania. My thesis is simply that there were legitimate grounds for opposing each of these laws, as against the claim by Goldsworthy that "little or nothing within it [the lex Iulia agraria] could be reasonably criticized." On the basis of this, I speculate that these legitimate grounds for opposing the laws were actually expressed by Cato, and this was the cause of Caesar's apoplexia.

[P.Clodius]

Quickly, to quote Garret Fagan, "Few could find fault with the bill." Time to re-listen Cato?

Edited September 15, 2006 by P.Clodius

[M. Porcius Cato]

The word of authority is not sufficient to convince me.

[Gaius Octavius]

Didn't M. Bibulus, Caesar's co-consul (in league with Cato?), retire to his residence to look for 'omens' so that Caesar's laws could later be voided?

 

Didn't Cato argue against all of Caesar's proposed laws?

Edited September 17, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Favonius Cornelius]

Didn't M. Bibulus, Caesar's co-consul (in league with Cato?), retire to his residence to look for 'omens' so that Caesar's laws could later be voided?

 

Yup, but it was a two way thing. Caesar refused to consent to opening any senate meetings (both must in order to do so), and Bibulus declared that he saw bad omens each day Caesar tried to convene the assemblies. That didn't stop Caesar from doing so anyway though.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Didn't Cato argue against all of Caesar's proposed laws?

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1243

 

Cato did not oppose all of Caesar's proposed laws. Cato worked closedly with Caesar in prosecuting the old Sullan aristocracy (defended by both Hortensius and Cicero), and Cato supported at least one of the early leges Iuliae, presumably Caesar's lex Iulia repetendarum, which was a particularly harsh law covering misconduct by magistrates.

 

Additionally, the gallery picture you posted is a portrait of Cato the Elder, not Cato the Younger (in old age, as you suggest). Cato the Younger died in his 40s, whereas Cato the Elder lived to a very old age.

 

For someone who hurls so much at Cato, you really ought to learn something about the fellow. Although I'm a severe critic of Caesar, at least I bother to learn about him.

[P.Clodius]

Didn't Cato argue against all of Caesar's proposed laws?

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1243

For someone who hurls so much at Cato, you really ought to learn something about the fellow. Although I'm a severe critic of Caesar, at least I bother to learn about him.

You've been told, now get going!

[Gaius Octavius]

Additionally, the gallery picture you posted is a portrait of Cato the Elder, not Cato the Younger (in old age, as you suggest). Cato the Younger died in his 40s, whereas Cato the Elder lived to a very old age.

 

For someone who hurls so much at Cato, you really ought to learn something about the fellow. Although I'm a severe critic of Caesar, at least I bother to learn about him.

 

If asking questions is hurling, then I plead guilty to being a champion 'hurler'.

 

Will take your word over 'web' sites. Pic shall misappear ere the shade falls. As amatter of fact this is one reason why I suggested that this thread be removed to 'Academia'.

 

Your very last sentence leaves you open, but I shan't.

Edited September 15, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Pompieus]

Didn't Caesar initially propose the land bill in the curia (before taking it to the assembly)? And isn't the thrust of Cassius Dio 38. 1-4 that the bill itself was not particularly objectionable on it's face, but was opposed by Cato and Bibulus because of the political benefits its passage would bring to Caesar and Pompey (as triumvirs or as individals)? Dio even makes it seem that the majority of the senate might have acquiesced had it not been for the inflexible opposition of Cato. After all, the veterans deserved their reward.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Didn't Caesar initially propose the land bill in the curia (before taking it to the assembly)? And isn't the thrust of Cassius Dio 38. 1-4 that the bill itself was not particularly objectionable on it's face, but was opposed by Cato and Bibulus because of the political benefits its passage would bring to Caesar and Pompey (as triumvirs or as individals)? Dio even makes it seem that the majority of the senate might have acquiesced had it not been for the inflexible opposition of Cato. After all, the veterans deserved their reward.

 

If you're interested in my response to all these issues, please see my previous post.