"Roman Salute"

[M. Porcius Cato]

The great Oath of the Horatii by David portrays what is commonly called the "Roman salute," but which otherwise sends shivers down one's spine as redolent of the seig-heiling robots that followed Hitler.

 

What is the evidence that the Romans really used this salute? I've read the salute is to be found on the column of Trajan, but I don't see it anywhere (even here).

 

Is the "Roman salute" really Roman or is it simply the invention of the neo-classical admirers of Rome?

 

(BTW, this image of the old Bellamy salute is really scary.)

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

The great Oath of the Horatii by David portrays what is commonly called the "Roman salute," but which otherwise sends shivers down one's spine as redolent of the seig-heiling robots that followed Hitler.

 

What is the evidence that the Romans really used this salute? I've read the salute is to be found on the column of Trajan, but I don't see it anywhere (even here).

 

Is the "Roman salute" really Roman or is it simply the invention of the neo-classical admirers of Rome?

 

(BTW, this image of the old Bellamy salute is really scary.)

 

Think i may have found the salute on Trajans column here

I think the picture is by no means evidence of the 'roman salute' they could just be holding their hands up wanting to speak???????

In my opinion the idea of the 'salute' is probably like you say an invention by early artists and film makers to give the scene a bit more of a grandiose effect...... the WOW factor

 

A very interesting question though...

Edited September 11, 2006 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus

[M. Porcius Cato]

Think i may have found the salute on Trajans column here

I think the picture is by no means evidence of the 'roman salute' they could just be holding their hands up wanting to speak?

 

Oooo--well done! Yes, I think the Trajan salute is more like the Tennis Court Oath more than the Oath of the Horatii. In any case, it's much less spine-crawling than the awful Bellamy salute.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

There was nothing wrong with the Bellamy salute until Hitler used it. I hate it when evil people take perfectly good symbols and damn them so nobody can ever use them again.

 

I think they are holding their hands out to grab something. Thats what it looks like in Maximus' Column pic.

[Gaius Octavius]

(BTW, this image of the old Bellamy salute is really scary.)

 

I believe that there is something wrong with that picture if it was taken in 1892. The radiators, flag, blinds, lighting, dress and desks look more like 1950.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

There was nothing wrong with the Bellamy salute until Hitler used it. I hate it when evil people take perfectly good symbols and damn them so nobody can ever use them again.

 

I think they are holding their hands out to grab something. Thats what it looks like in Maximus' Column pic.

 

I think it was Benito Mussolini who first turned the salute into a symbol of fascism. He was the fascist dictator of Italy from 1922 - 1943 and was an alley of Adolf Hitler whom he greatly influenced

[WotWotius]

(BTW, this image of the old Bellamy salute is really scary.)

 

I believe that there is something wrong with that picture if it was taken in 1892. The radiators, flag, blinds, lighting, dress and desks look more like 1950.

 

It is a picture from an article on the Bellamy salute, and in the article, it is mentioned that 'It was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the National School Celebration of Columbus Day'. I do not believe that the article even implies the photo is from 1892, it just uses it as an example of the Bellamy salute.

 

Gaius was probably right in saying that it was probably from 1950s.

[DecimusCaesar]

The whole Roman salute thing has confused me as well, seeing as it is portrayed in lots of Roman films and TV shows, yet I have never seen it being mentioned in any of the books I have read and I've never seen a statue, mosaic or mural showing Romans doing the 'zeig heil' type salute even though I've seen them do other salutes (or at leat out stretching their arms) such as on some statues of Augustsus and Marcus Aurelius.

[M. Porcius Cato]

It is a picture from an article on the Bellamy salute, and in the article, it is mentioned that 'It was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the National School Celebration of Columbus Day'.

 

FWIW, here is a photo of the pre-Bellamy salute used in the same pledge.

[Pantagathus]

Gaius was probably right in saying that it was probably from 1950s.

But still... I don't see how that could be an authentic classroom of the post WWII era in America. I find it very hard to believe any teacher would encourage that type a salute considering the socio-political environment of the time.

 

I'd be willing to bet it was from some B-movie. Regardless, I'm with Cato; it makes me quite uncomfortable.

[Gaius Octavius]

I have a recollection that a 'salute' is supposed to indicate: 'Look, no weapon.' to a senior and is manifested in different ways by different cultures. An open palm is usual in most salutes, but a clenched fist was used by the Black Panthers. Yet, an objection pops to mind when one has a rifle shouldered and salutes. The Romans could have had a number of different ways of saluting, just as moderns have. Some other Nazi customs seem to have been adopted from the Romans. This may have resulted from Hitler's fascination with Mussolini.

 

I have a very, very vague recollection of using the Bellamy salute in grammar school in the 1940's.

 

WW, look at the caption under the photo.

[Horatius]

 

But still... I don't see how that could be an authentic classroom of the post WWII era in America. I find it very hard to believe any teacher would encourage that type a salute considering the socio-political environment of the time.

Well since this thread is sort of off topic anyway I'll add my 2 cents. When I was a child in the 60's in a Roman Catholic school we had 2 flags in the classroom a U.S. and a Vatican flag.After we did the pledge of allegience to the U.S. flag (hand over heart) we then pledged to the Vatican flag with a salute very much like the Bellamy salute but palm up instead of down. I don't know what this was all about but remember thinking it was very strange even as a child. Wish I could remember the actual pledge but can only remember parts of it. Think it only lasted a few years then was abolished. Anyone else remember this? I know it happened,don't even get me started on the Pagan Babies lol.

[caldrail]

It might be useful to remember that to all intents and purposes the third reich was an attempt to recreate the glories of the roman empire even if unconsiously. It would suprise me not one jot to learn that roman and nazi salutes were similar.

 

However I do think a roman salute existed, whatever format it took. An army organised in the manner of the romans is going to need some method of declaring respect for seniority - thats an aspect of human nature. In fact, the senior roman officers would likely demand some form of acknowledgement from their men.

[Gaius Octavius]

In any case, it's much less spine-crawling than the awful Bellamy salute.

 

If the alleged Roman and Bellamy salutes were pre-Nazi, why should they be "awful"?

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

In any case, it's much less spine-crawling than the awful Bellamy salute.

 

If the alleged Roman and Bellamy salutes were pre-Nazi, why should they be "awful"?

 

The same goes for the swastika, which actually meant "luck." It also is still in use today for mainly Buddism.