This Gladius Is A Bit Short Sir...

[caldrail]

A few posts ago I mentioned that the gladius evolved from a long pointed, gracefully curved blade to a shorter and straighter weapon before the 3rd century ad. Now I'd mentioned that this might be partly due to the influence of the doctores (gladiator trainers) that were used occaisionally to improve legionaries swordplay, but I was left thinking - well that can't be the only reason. So here's another. The legions were being cheated. Follow this arguement....

 

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"Hello centurion, what can do for you?"

 

"Ave swordsmith. I need two hundred gladii like this.... Can you you supply them?"

 

"Certainly sir. That will be two months work at... (sharp intake of breath)... two thousand coins"

 

"What! Too expensive. Make them for five hundred or I'll take the work elsewhere."

 

"Right you are then sir."

 

"Good. Now you've seen sense I'll leave you this one to work from. They must all be like this. Good day to you."

 

"Pssst.. Take a look lad, has he gone? Right... Take this sword and grind off an inch or two. Then we'll copy it. I'm not wasting good iron on that arrogant so and so. More profit for us you see...."

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I wonder how true this scenario is? Caveat emptor was fundamental to roman trade, and for many years it must have been the same with the legions.

[Vibius Tiberius Costa]

I think that like in any era that people will cut corners, Every household or business wants to make money so i think your scenario could be highly likely, however i if he is just re-using the iron and making lesser swords the legionaries would know. Also, an order of 2000 swords might not be given to any old armourer so the centurion would expect quality. Back to the point, this sounds highly plausible.

[miguel]

I would think this is rather like a joke.

Actually when they wanted swords, would they patronize some designated swordsmith or just randomly find one on the street?

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

I think the Mr. Centurion would notice they were shorter then the old ones some time or another. Cheating the army wouldn't be a healthy thing.

[Gaius Octavius]

Didn't the Romans have 'government' armouries?

[Favonius Cornelius]

A few posts ago I mentioned that the gladius evolved from a long pointed, gracefully curved blade to a shorter and straighter weapon before the 3rd century ad.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'long pointed gracefully curved blade.' It sort of sounds like you are speaking of the falcata, but Roman armies either never used it or at least only used it right in the beginning of their use of the gladius short sword, since it's likely that the weapon's effectiveness was learned and adapted during wars in Iberia or while fighting the Carthraginians (and their Iberian allies/mercenaries).

 

Or are you speaking of the tip of the gladius?

[caldrail]

Gladius Hispaniensis - the spanish sword with a slightly leaf shaped blade as used during the republic. Went out of favour before the principate to be replaced by the 'mainz' style. This in turn was replaced by the 'pompeii' pattern by Nero's time which remained in service (albeit reducing in length) until the 3rd century ad when it started becoming abandoned in favour of the longer cavalry Spatha.

[Julius Ratus]

The "leaf-shaped" blade of the early roman swords was not unlike the Greek swords. They were not really "curved" - per se like a sabre, but bulged out at the end. To the best of my knollege, the falcata (Gr. Machaira) was never used by the Romans to any large scale, if at all. It was more of a Celtiberian weapon, though the Greeks had a version.

 

As far as getting duped by armourer, I think that by the 3rd C. A.D. the Romans had state armouries. Before this I believe that each legion had its own craftsmen.

[DecimusCaesar]

Yes, swords as well as armour were made in Fabricae in the Later Empire, but even so a Gladius that is kept in the Bangor Museum (which I saw a few weeks ago, unfortunately I didn't get a chance to photograph it) is rather unique (I think it's mentioned in the book 'The Roman Army from Hadrain to Constantine by Michael Simkins) as it is a infantry sword but it dates to the late 1st Century, although this is uncertain. The blade itself is of a 'Pompeii' type but its unique in its shape it has a hexagonal upper half while the remainder of the blade is a sort of diamond but it is much longer than the normal gladius and it's hilt is also different. This probably demonstrates that there were different types of Gladius being manufactured or as Simkins suggested the sword is badly manufactured, therefore leading to the decline of the Gladius and it'e eventual replacement with the semi-spatha.

[Pertinax]

A few posts ago I mentioned that the gladius evolved from a long pointed, gracefully curved blade to a shorter and straighter weapon before the 3rd century ad.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'long pointed gracefully curved blade.' It sort of sounds like you are speaking of the falcata, but Roman armies either never used it or at least only used it right in the beginning of their use of the gladius short sword, since it's likely that the weapon's effectiveness was learned and adapted during wars in Iberia or while fighting the Carthraginians (and their Iberian allies/mercenaries).

 

Or are you speaking of the tip of the gladius?

 

 

Does this illlustration help the debate?

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1241

[Favonius Cornelius]

Wow, a hoplite/Celtiberian hybrid equipped soldier. He's suppose to be Roman?

 

No you're not helping Pertinax.

[Pertinax]

Wow, a hoplite/Celtiberian hybrid equipped soldier. He's suppose to be Roman?

 

No you're not helping Pertinax.

 

I was inclined to think "Punic/hopliati/celtiberian" with a falcata? So what is the sword on the belt of his helper?

Sorry 'bout that chaps. Macedonian infantryman id say.

 

I did try to get a shot of the Bangor sword (DC refers ) but no luck.

[DecimusCaesar]

There's an illustration of it in the book 'The Roman Army from Hadrian to Constantine' by Michael Simkins, it's a reconstruction as the one in the museum is in extremly poor quality (it had been broken in half) -

 

Here is a picture of the sword, have archaeologists found other similar type of swords since the book's publication in 1979?

 

 

Bangor Museum 'Pompeii' Gladius

 

Note the very short handle...Simkins says it is very difficult to handle and even more difficult to weild in battle.

Edited September 13, 2006 by DecimusCaesar

[Julius Ratus]

I have the Simkins book at home, unfortunatly I am not there, but will look at it when I get there.

[Pertinax]

There's an illustration of it in the book 'The Roman Army from Hadrian to Constantine' by Michael Simkins, it's a reconstruction as the one in the museum is in extremly poor quality (it had been broken in half) -

 

Here is a picture of the sword, have archaeologists found other similar type of swords since the book's publication in 1979?

 

 

Bangor Museum 'Pompeii' Gladius

 

Note the very short handle...Simkins says it is very difficult to handle and even more difficult to weild in battle.

 

do you suggest a ceremonial usage?

 

I have added a second scavanged image :

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1242

which does say "triarius, hastatus and principe " to my non-specialised eyes.These look like conventional armour/sword configurations.Would anyone now care to comment on the gladius in this illustration? Is this the "hispanic" sword that Caldrail is commenting upon?