Greek Shame?

[Favonius Cornelius]

After talking with Pantagathus and Pertinax about herms and their members, it got me to thinking about the concept of shame in the Greek world. Our modern version is heavily influenced by Christianity which has imprinted on our minds to be pointlessly and damagingly ashamed of ourselves on a wide variety of topics. In the east there is a heavy shame connotation if one fails the family. Even the Romans had some shame upon failure of duty.

 

But what of the Greeks? I am having a hard time thinking of instances of shame represented in their ancient society.

[DecimusCaesar]

I think it probably varied from city state to city state and from era to era. I personally believe that failing to serve the city-state would have brought massive shame and perhaps exile to an individual. I will to look more into this matter, it's an interesting topic.

[Pantagathus]

I believe DC is on to a main source of shame when he mentions failure. Military failure for the Greeks was very shameful and would typically end in exile and perhaps even death if you were a Spartan.

 

Murder of course was shameful and it took a lot of wrangling with the Gods and the law to be absolved of the crime.

 

Incest, though Greek myth is up to it's ears in it tends to come across as a shameful happenstance.

 

However, for an older man to cruise the gymnasiums in search of a boy lover to woo was quite normal. From what I've read, much of a young man's formal education would result from such a relationship with an older lover.

[Pertinax]

I quote a little from the Oxford Companion to the Ancient World " the modern concept of sin had no equivalent in Greek or Latin" . The logic being that the Christian idea accommodates two basic and coherent senses: offences against moral codes and secondly action against the law/will of God. The underlying presumption is of voulantriness . The conceptual tools that the "Greeks" used were more akin to wrongdoing and lawlesness.Latin ( I think ) looks more to" fault, eror or blemish" as behavioural abberations.

Our resident language scholars will need to correct me if I err.

Certainly (as Pantagathus says) Greeks and Macedonians would be shamed by military failure, that form of service being so intimate to proper citizenship.As regards sexuality , well our modern terms and references are useless, people were sexual beings and dependent on age/status/education liasons could be formed which would nowadays be condemmed as "grossly unnatural" , but at that time were considered a sort of sophomoric rite ( I simplify greatly: but we have covered this topic previously).

Its interesting to reflect on "no body shame " as a daily actuality is it not ? Unthinkable now , which is praiseworthy perhaps, given the rise of obesity.

I think the division of Religion (sacred) and Morality (action) might be a key point to ponder.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

My World history teacher taught that the Spartan society had this little requirement, that the mothers of soldiers demanded they bring back their swords and shields every time from battle, to make sure they fought to death or be victorious since when you lose, you would drop a the heavy stuff.

[Gaius Octavius]

I understand that the Roman people supposedly made fun of Caesar for an alleged homosexual act. If so, how does that square with above?

[Primus Pilus]

I understand that the Roman people supposedly made fun of Caesar for an alleged homosexual act. If so, how does that square with above?

 

He was rumored to have been the receiver rather than giver, which carried a different conotation. There was nothing necessarily wrong with it from the general Roman perspective, but the social elite were expected to be on the more dominant side of the equation.

[Favonius Cornelius]

I suppose it seems the one unifying shame that all cultures share is that of loss in battle. Makes sense, seeing as how that sort of loss can cause the culture to be extinct.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Military failure for the Greeks was very shameful and would typically end in exile and perhaps even death if you were a Spartan.

Sounds more like Bushido than anything Greek to me. Can you provide any examples where Spartans were killed for failing to win in war? Seems like a speedy way to deprive your nation of an army.

[Pantagathus]

Can you provide any examples where Spartans were killed for failing to win in war?

Since I wasn't specific with my comment and didn't mean to be in the sense that it happened systematically, I'll answer yours this way:

 

According to Thucydides, the Spartan general Pausanias who turned out to be a complete knee-biter and veritable turncoat came to this end...

 

When they found that he was on the point of expiring, just as he was, in the chamber, they brought him out of the temple, while the breath was still in him, and as soon as he was brought out he died.

 

They were going to throw him into the Kaiadas, where they cast malefactors, but finally decided to inter him somewhere near.

[Pertinax]

I venture to suggest that the actions and motivation of Leonidas and his unit of all-sire men ( ie: they had all sons to carry the bloodline) would be recognisable to any adherent of the Bushi code , from nonchalant flippancy(and awe inspiring sang froid) carried off with aplomb:

" lay down your arms" exhorts the Persian ( with a slight numerical advantadge) , "come and get them" quoth Leonidas; to the uncompromising manner of their deaths

[Gaius Octavius]

I think that it was cowardice in battle and not necessarily the loss of a battle that caused an inglorious end.

[Pantagathus]

I think that it was cowardice in battle and not necessarily the loss of a battle that caused an inglorious end.

Most definitely

[Pertinax]

I think that it was cowardice in battle and not necessarily the loss of a battle that caused an inglorious end.

Most definitely

Yes ive drifted from discussing shame, to honour and glory through noble defeat.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

I've found quite an interesting article on shame in ancient Greece

 

take a look www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2267/is_4_70/ai_112943734

Edited September 7, 2006 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus