Jews And Romans

[Romanstudent19]

It's been ages since i've visited this forum so i hope this isn't a repeat of anything else, but does anyone know if there were any times in ancient history where the Jews and Romans weren't hostile to each other, and does anyone have any theories or knowledgle as to why, out of every other group the Romans came into contact with, the Romans and Jews seemed to have a worse relationship with each other, it's something i'm interested in as i'm interested in both Jewish and Ancient Roman history.

 

I've read in one book (i can't remember which one) that at one time in history, Judaism was quite popular with upper class Romans (or maybe just with upper class Roman women?, i can't remember the full quote), is this true, i know that when the Romans came back to Rome after visiting other countries and conquering them, they'd bring back different religions (like didn't the Isis cult, Mithrasism, Elysian(sp?) mysteries, etc become popular in Rome) and i was just wondering, if it ever became popular with any Romans.

 

I've also read that one Emperor on a visit to Jerusalem in Palestine, demanded to be brought in to see the Jewish Temple, and, despite protests about it, barged in and entered the hidden sanctuary (i think?) where the High Priest would commune with Yahweh, and, the book said, no one knew what he saw, but when he emerged, he became a defender and supporter of the Jews (sorry that i can't remember the book's name, but it was ages ago), does anyone know which Emperor this was and if this is true.

 

If it is true, did the Jews ever receive backing from certain parts of Rome or the Roman Empire?.

 

Thanks for any answers you can give, and sorry if this seems like a really dumb question, it's just something i'm really interested in.

 

Thanks again .

[Ursus]

It's not a dumb question at all, but it's complicated , and I had to reread a lot of things before I dared answer your question (because Jewish matters are not my strong point)

 

What set the Jews apart from the other peoples of the empire was their official Monotheism, and the peculiar practices that derived from their Torah. Greeks and Romans always found it a bit odd - and to the extent that honoring the official pagan gods of city-state was seen as a civic duty, the Jewish refusal to do this could be construed as unpatriotic at best, treacherous at worst.

 

There are instances where Jews living in the Diaspora lost their Jewish identity and rose far in Roman society. A man of Jewish heritage became the equestrian prefect of Egypt, for instance. There are even a few instances when Greeks or Romans converted to Judaism and became high-ranking members of a Synagogue. But generally there wasn't much overlap between paganism and Judaism, and the religious systems did not cross over.

 

Culturally speaking, the Jews living in their native land fiercely retained their identity. Those living in the Diaspora were able to assimilate to some degree - they learned Greek and Latin, partook of amphitheaters and so forth, and attained some civic offices. But most of them did not lose their particular religious identity.

 

Jews rose higher in the Greek East than in the Latin West. But because of that power dynamic, Jews and Greeks were more likely to come to blows than Jews and Romans. There were bloody conflicts in Alexandria between Jew and Greek.

 

Under Caesar and Augustus, the Roman authorities actually favored the Jews because the Jewish high priest at the time was a client. After that particular arrangement ended, though, the differences between Jewish and Greco-Roman society became apparent. Tensions worsened until it culminated in the destruction of the Temple. Sometime later, the Hellenophile emperor Hadrian tried to destroy Jewish identity by outlawing circumcision. However, the Severan emperors (themselves of Semitic origin) reversed the trend and gradually the upper class Jews could again become high ranking members of the provinces.

 

How the Roman State treated the Jews therefore depended on the particular emperor. I suspect at the lower level, in relations between the common Roman and the common Jewish Diaspora member, both sides were simply apathetic to each other with a bit of suspicion in the background, but they nonetheless lived with each other and did business with each other.

[PrimusUnus]

It's been ages since i've visited this forum so i hope this isn't a repeat of anything else, but does anyone know if there were any times in ancient history where the Jews and Romans weren't hostile to each other, and does anyone have any theories or knowledgle as to why, out of every other group the Romans came into contact with, the Romans and Jews seemed to have a worse relationship with each other, it's something i'm interested in as i'm interested in both Jewish and Ancient Roman history.

 

After Ceasar's death, "In this public mourning there joined a multitude of foreigners, expressing their sorrow according to the fashion of their respective countries; but especially the Jews 100, who for several nights together frequented the spot where the body was burnt." (Suetonius, Div. Julius, 84)

Julius and the Jews had a good relationship, at least.

 

I've also read that one Emperor on a visit to Jerusalem in Palestine, demanded to be brought in to see the Jewish Temple, and, despite protests about it, barged in and entered the hidden sanctuary (i think?) where the High Priest would commune with Yahweh, and, the book said, no one knew what he saw, but when he emerged, he became a defender and supporter of the Jews (sorry that i can't remember the book's name, but it was ages ago), does anyone know which Emperor this was and if this is true.

 

"Roman control of Judaea was first established by Gnaeus Pompey. As victor he claimed the right to enter the Temple, and this incident gave rise to the common impression that it contained no representation of the deity - the sanctuary was empty and the Holy of Holies untenanted."

Cornelius Tacitus, "The Histories" Book 5: 11-12

 

It is interesting to think that up till this moment, Pompey's life was a series of successes. After "violating" the Holy of Holies it became a series of frustrations...

Curious?

 

Robert

[M. Porcius Cato]

This isn't my area of interest, but Fergus Millar is widely known for his contribution to the area. See the third volume of his fantastic "Rome, the Greek World, and the East" series: The Greek World, the Jews, and the East.

[WotWotius]

In regard to the Jews, Emperor Claudius also seems to have had a fairly tolerant policy:

 

'Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, pontifex maximus, holding the tribunician power, proclaims: . . .Therefore it is right that also the Jews, who are in all the world under us, shall maintain their ancestral customs without hindrance and to them I now also command to use this my kindness rather reasonably and not to despise the religious rites of the other nations, but to observe their own laws.' -Edict of Claudius, 41 AD.

 

Additionally, autonomous rule in Judea was, to some extent, installed when Herod Agrippa was appointed the region's client king.

Edited September 12, 2006 by WotWotius

[M. Porcius Cato]

Additionally, he restored autonomous rule to Judea when he appointed Herod Agrippa as the region's client king.

 

Autonomy protected by a client king? Nothing struck you as odd when writing that?

[Gaius Octavius]

Autonomy protected by a client king? Nothing struck you as odd when writing that?

 

Autonomy does not mean sovereignty.

[WotWotius]

Additionally, he restored autonomous rule to Judea when he appointed Herod Agrippa as the region's client king.

 

Autonomy protected by a client king? Nothing struck you as odd when writing that?

 

So being so pernickety, I have the flu.

 

Besides, I have edited the statement slightly to make it more correct.

[AEGYPTUS]

The Battle of Masada certainly suggest that realtionship between the rulers and those occupied was not good. Lead by Eleazar the Jews put up a good fight eventually the Legions had to build a ramp so they could gain access to the fortress.

[PrimusUnus]

The Battle of Masada certainly suggest that realtionship between the rulers and those occupied was not good. Lead by Eleazar the Jews put up a good fight eventually the Legions had to build a ramp so they could gain access to the fortress.

 

True, but that was during a rebellion.

The question raised by RomanStudent19 was whether there was a period where the Romans and Jews had a better relationship. I think the various posts show that they had.

 

Also, remember that we are MUCH better informed as to Roman/Jewish relations than, say, the Dacians before Trajan's conquest of them.

We don't know how bad relations were between them because there is (virtually) no information.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack

 

Robert

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

The siege of Masada was merely wiping out the last group of religious zealots. The Jewish Revolt was well over by then, but in a Roman's eye, a revolt isn't over until every last man of opposition is gone. The siege of Masada really isn't a good example of the overall views between Jew and Roman.

[idahojeri]

It's been ages since i've visited this forum so i hope this isn't a repeat of anything else, but does anyone know if there were any times in ancient history where the Jews and Romans weren't hostile to each other, and does anyone have any theories or knowledgle as to why, out of every other group the Romans came into contact with, the Romans and Jews seemed to have a worse relationship with each other, it's something i'm interested in as i'm interested in both Jewish and Ancient Roman history.

 

 

Thanks again .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I just finished "The Jews of Ancient Rome" by Harry Leon. THought you might be interested in what I picked up: The Jews were lucky when they backed Julius Caesar. Always one to shower benefits on those who helped him, Caesar granted them some great privileges (Josephus gives us the whole list in his "Antiquities"). They were allowed to practice their religion, which was the main benefit. Also, they even had their own courts of justice in many cities, and their men were exempted from serving in the army. Christians tried to claim status as Jews in the early years since the Jews had so many benefits.

 

The Jews in ROme were mostly clustered around the Transiberine section. Jews tended to cluster together because their food was different, and their holidays. Jews from this section buried their dead in the catacombs. Those who had been archons, gerusiarch, archisunagogus, etc. were noted in their funeral incriptions. Of the 544 inscriptions Leon mentions 405 were in Greek, 123 in Latin, and only 3 in Hebrew and 1 in Aramaic. Many of the inscriptions had errors in grammar or spelling.

 

Yet even for all their benefits the Jews, within the next hundred years or so, had two violent uprisings against the Romans.

 

The first was surely the worst, It ended in 70 AD and the destruction of the Jewish temple. With the loss of the temple, the Jewish priesthood ended. In order to become a priest you had to have proof of your family in the scrolls that were kept in the temple So there were no more high priest, no more sacrifices.

 

Sorry, this is getting too long. But it's interesting, isn't it?

 

Blessings, Jeri

[Gaius Octavius]

Jeri, not long enough. Please add the essentials.

[Romanstudent19]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone, it's really good.

 

Although i have another question, were there any examples of Romans (whether soldiers or other Roman citizens) having any relationships with Jews, 'cause, i've read that in some of the places the Romans conquered, like Britain, etc, some of the soldiers posted in a specific territory would end up having relationships with the people there, and i was just wondering, if there were any examples of this happening between Jews and Romans.

 

Thanks again for all the replies .

[caldrail]

The Battle of Masada certainly suggest that realtionship between the rulers and those occupied was not good. Lead by Eleazar the Jews put up a good fight eventually the Legions had to build a ramp so they could gain access to the fortress.

 

Masada was occupied by a splinter group of jews known as sicarii, or knifemen. They weren't jewish patriots in the accepted sense and the romans had good reason to see them dealt with. As for putting up a good fight, well no not really, it was more like a desperate struggle to keep the romans out. Masada was a good choice of retreat. The rocky plateau it stands on is nearly isolated. The ramp was built despite the efforts of the sicarii to shoot the builders dead, and large numbers of jewish slaves were employed to build it - it wasn't just the legions themselves. Not only that, the roman engineers had stone piers inserted to prevent the ramp from collapsing and ensured that positions for ballistae/catapulta were made to keep the sicarii's heads down. Truth was, the assault on masada was a foregone conclusion. Having breached the outer wall built originally for Herod the romans found an inner wall had been built of loose stone, rubble, and timber. The romans set fire to this and only by a favourable change of wind was this not a disaster for them, because the flames went out of control and threatened their siege engines. Meanwhile the sicarii realised the game was up and famously chose to commit mass scuicide to spare themselves from roman retribution. Only one woman and her children survived having hidden in a sewer.

 

The sicarii were seen as dangerous troublemakers by the romans, and they weren't any part of an official army organised by Judaea.

 

For those who are interested - the ramp is still there today.