Gaius Octavius Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 tflex, I didn't quote you at all. You still haven't responded to my statements. You must make allowance for my writing in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflex Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) You still haven't responded to my statements. I responded to one in the other thread, as to the french cardinal (he had to be french), it's the first time I ever heard of him. But another example, is Rev. Pat Robertson insulted Sharon on his death bed, Sharon is considered an Israeli hero like Washington is to America, yet Pat was in Israel a few weeks ago. You must make allowance for my writing in English. No Gaius, you and I both know that you are much too skillful at the English language, one only has to look into your blog As for that blasted cardinal he deserved it since he's french Edited August 28, 2006 by tflex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Good tflex: Consider yourself presently informed as to the existence of His Grace, the blasted french Cardinal! Personally, I have always felt that the wrong rev rat robberson, S.H.I.T.*, has been in need of a good old fashioned solid thrashing for all his bad work. And I see that you will not make allowance for my writing in English. Really, must I repeat: Lafayette, Yorktown, etc. Back to topic. Whether you admit it or not , Israel is a theocracy. For this, Israel is neither good nor bad; a so-called democracy or not. Their people, like the Cubans or any other nation, may choose the form of government that pleases them, without interference from outsiders. My problem has always been with the use of 'best' and 'perfect'. "Mine, is the 'best' kid", etc. A citizen of San Marino or an Aussie would have problems with their not being counted the 'best' or 'perfect' nations.. Don't take all this to heart. These are simply some of my usually ill considered views. * Society of Holey Immaculate Telereverendos. P.S. Thanks for peeking at my blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflex Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) Good tflex:I have always felt that the wrong rev rat robberson, S.H.I.T.*, has been in need of a good old fashioned solid thrashing for all his bad work. And I see that you will not make allowance for my writing in English. Well, I'm glad we can agree on one thing, I'm not a fan of Pat either, probably for a different reason though. Back to topic. Whether you admit it or not , Israel is a theocracy. Whats your definition of theocracy? For this, Israel is neither good nor bad; a so-called democracy or not. Their people, like the Cubans or any other nation, may choose the form of government that pleases them, without interference from outsiders. Wait you think Cubans are happy with their form of government, what about the one's who swam to Florida, the massive cuban migration the last 50 years, what about the unhappy ones living in Cuba, but simply can't open their mouth. Thats a bad example, I assure you if you go to Cuba and ask your average cuban citizen if he's happy, he will tell you he's in paradise, and I hope you know why you will get that response. Then go ask a Cuban in Miami what he thinks of his country's form of government, I assure you what he has to say won't be too nice. Again, it's like the middle east, a christian in Lebanon will publicly say Hizbullah is a resistance, in private or outside of the country they will curse the hell out of them and call them what they really are terrorists. Edited August 28, 2006 by tflex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflex Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) Good tflex:I have always felt that the wrong rev rat robberson, S.H.I.T.*, has been in need of a good old fashioned solid thrashing for all his bad work. And I see that you will not make allowance for my writing in English. Well, I'm glad we can agree on one thing, I'm not a fan of Pat either, probably for a different reason though. Back to topic. Whether you admit it or not , Israel is a theocracy. Whats your definition of theocracy? For this, Israel is neither good nor bad; a so-called democracy or not. Their people, like the Cubans or any other nation, may choose the form of government that pleases them, without interference from outsiders. Wait you think Cubans are happy with their form of government, what about the one's who swam to Florida, the massive cuban migration the last 50 years, what about the unhappy ones living in Cuba, but simply can't open their mouth. Thats a bad example, I assure you if you go to Cuba and ask your average cuban citizen if he's happy, he will tell you he's in paradise, and I hope you understand why you will get that response. Then go ask a Cuban in Miami what he thinks of his country's form of government, I assure you what he has to say won't be too nice. Again, it's like the middle east, a christian in Lebanon will publicly say Hizbullah is a resistance for fear of retaliation, in private or outside of the country they will curse the hell out of them and call them what they really are terrorists. Edited August 28, 2006 by tflex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 tflex: 1. Most any dictionary definition will suit me. 2. We are commencing to go around in circles on the subject of Cuba once again. 3. I refuse to get in-between peoples ears. Dixi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlapse Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 The number of poor men who have not only run successfully for high office but also attained the presidency is very great indeed. In the last century alone, we have had presidents and secretaries of state of humble to middle income origins, inlcuding Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Dwight Eisenhower, and Harry Truman. Colin Powell, our secretary of state, was the son of sharecroppers and the grandson of slaves. If to an outside observer it seems that the US is closed to the ambitious poor, the outside observer is as woefully underinformed of US history as is the typical American uninformed of non-US history. Indeed. The biggest hinderance that I see is the game of political pull.. and this has a lot to do with big business. However, many of the biggest businesses originated from a standing start and succeeded under a person who had not inherited the wealth - Sam Walton, Bill Gates, etc. As for corruption, there are international bodies and consortia of scholars that study this topic, and they are nearly unanimous in their agreement that corruption of civil servants in the US is remarkably rare. If I attempted to bribe a traffic cop in Manhattan or Minneapolis, all hell would break lose; if I tried to avoid it in Moscow or Mexico City, it would be very difficult. An exception that I would mention is the corruption of police when it comes to illegal drugs. They are incredibly valuable due to prohibition. I have a family member that witnessed this type of corruption first-hand as a policeman, so I tend to believe the commentary on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 As for corruption, there are international bodies and consortia of scholars that study this topic, and they are nearly unanimous in their agreement that corruption of civil servants in the US is remarkably rare. If I attempted to bribe a traffic cop in Manhattan or Minneapolis, all hell would break lose; if I tried to avoid it in Moscow or Mexico City, it would be very difficult. An exception that I would mention is the corruption of police when it comes to illegal drugs. They are incredibly valuable due to prohibition. I have a family member that witnessed this type of corruption first-hand as a policeman, so I tend to believe the commentary on the subject. Yes, the drug prohibition laws are a major source of corruption. Among other things, the laws that allow the police to confiscate property and keep it for themselves is a huge invitation to corruption, on top of the corruption that has to hapen when the government attempts to ban any popular commodity. As just one example, I briefly lived in a county in the southern US which was "dry" (meaning no alchohol above a certain proof could be sold). The consequence was that the bootlegger enjoyed enormous popularity for fulfilling an unmet need, and elected law enforcement (like the county sheriff) refused to pursue the bootlegger in spite of his selling to minors and selling other contraband. Indeed, the bootlegger was so brazen that he had his location in the middle of the small town that was the county seat, and the location was so well-known that you could use the location as a landmark when giving directions. What finally put this gray character out of business? Legalization. And who opposed it? The churches. As much as I love the US system, the drug laws reflect one of the worst aspects of American culture--a puritanism that ignores rationality and even the lofty right to pursue happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLavius Valerius Constantinus Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 As for corruption, there are international bodies and consortia of scholars that study this topic, and they are nearly unanimous in their agreement that corruption of civil servants in the US is remarkably rare. If I attempted to bribe a traffic cop in Manhattan or Minneapolis, all hell would break lose; if I tried to avoid it in Moscow or Mexico City, it would be very difficult. An exception that I would mention is the corruption of police when it comes to illegal drugs. They are incredibly valuable due to prohibition. I have a family member that witnessed this type of corruption first-hand as a policeman, so I tend to believe the commentary on the subject. Yes, the drug prohibition laws are a major source of corruption. Among other things, the laws that allow the police to confiscate property and keep it for themselves is a huge invitation to corruption, on top of the corruption that has to hapen when the government attempts to ban any popular commodity. As just one example, I briefly lived in a county in the southern US which was "dry" (meaning no alchohol above a certain proof could be sold). The consequence was that the bootlegger enjoyed enormous popularity for fulfilling an unmet need, and elected law enforcement (like the county sheriff) refused to pursue the bootlegger in spite of his selling to minors and selling other contraband. Indeed, the bootlegger was so brazen that he had his location in the middle of the small town that was the county seat, and the location was so well-known that you could use the location as a landmark when giving directions. What finally put this gray character out of business? Legalization. And who opposed it? The churches. As much as I love the US system, the drug laws reflect one of the worst aspects of American culture--a puritanism that ignores rationality and even the lofty right to pursue happiness. I think it depends on what area and situation. I'm sure it's all very true, but I've never heard of it as a persistent problem here in Chicago. For some odd reason, Chicago as a notorious history of gangs=drugs problem doesn't experience those kind of effects. Although we do have a harsh police force that does seem committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlapse Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 There's a little something called 'Code of Silence'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Well no one seems to care to explain to me in what the USA is suppose to have the best system So maybe i try <sarcasm> poverty rate in the western world? crime rate under western societies? not been able to play proper soccer? preventing cities from floods after hurricans? having yards instead of meter? using dollar instead of pounds/euro/yen etc. </sarcasm> The perfect system is the one were the majority feels comfortable with itself and its surroundings, it doesnt really matter in what country you live in. A monk in Nepal might live (in our eyes) in terrible poor conditions, but still he might be happier then all the beverly hill chicks with implants, artificial lips and fat wallets... A goat farmer in central turkey might have no money but a little herd of goats and his family and friends, still he might be happier then the wall street broker that has just divorced for the third time... To sum it up it is utter nonsense that this or that is closest to perfect system. Remember you are mostly a product of your enviroment and circumstance, if you would have grown up as son of a fig farmer in syria chances are yould most defenitely NOT think that the USA or Israel is having the perfect system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted August 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Ridicolous only applies to your daft statement comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, thats not just ridicolous, but plain dumb. Is it so dumb? The israeli activities in Gaza and the West Bank - incursions by gunships, the indiscriminate massacre of civilians, seizing the politicians of another country and detaining them; the invasion of a sovereign state (Lebanon) on two occasions without any attempt to gain international sanction beforehand - this is "Night and Fog" on an incredible scale. Sharon practically created the most recent statge of the intefada by his visit to the Temple Mount before becoming Prime Minister - an insensitive and inflammatory gesture reminiscent of Dr Goebells. Indeed, the temple Mount - a Holy Shrone of islam - does not even belong to Israel, and half Jerusalem has been annexed illegally (viz the Anschluss and the seizure of Czechoslovakia in the 30s - though the former was at least covered by a plebiscite as I recall, and the first stage of the latter agreed internationally at Munich). In one thing Israel today does better than the reich - it does not even have to run the concentration (sorry refugee) camps for Palestinians - it leaves that to its neighbours. Palestinians, by the wat, evicted from Israel half a century ago in many cases. Had such things happened to Israelis I am certain we would never have ceased to hear about it. And as for its politics and democracy - I find Jordan a more wholesome example of a country seeking to establish a democratic state. The impact in Israel of orthodox, conservative, right wing parties is appalling. Turning to the US, like israel the US (much to my consternation I might add) is rapidly using up its store of goodwill in the world. Arrogant, aggressive, immature in its foreign policies for the last decade and more (Clinton's were no better) it is also proving itself incompetent in Iraq and the rise of right wing/fundamentalist Christian parties and views is perceived as little better than the viewpoint adopted by Osama and Al Qaeda - just reversed. I forecast a new dark Age for America if it adopts educational policies that replace the sciences with biblical stories on any large scale. Democracy can be lost - through military coups, cultural stagnation; intolerance; persecution; invasion; population change/immigration etc. In English terms (if we conservatively say that modern English history started in AD 1066, the USA today is at about the AD 1300 mark - don't expect a smooth run over the next millenium and look at the symptoms of decay now. By the way - as for poor Americans reaching high office, I don't recall Colin Powell as being elected either as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or Secretary of State (and he didn't last long because out of tune with the regime). But i look at the current bunch of comics in power and I see big business, oil and self0interest writ large. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Turning to the US, like israel the US (much to my consternation I might add) is rapidly using up its store of goodwill in the world. Arrogant, aggressive, immature in its foreign policies for the last decade and more (Clinton's were no better) it is also proving itself incompetent in Iraq and the rise of right wing/fundamentalist Christian parties and views is perceived as little better than the viewpoint adopted by Osama and Al Qaeda - just reversed. Exactly, and for that my firend, know that not all Americans follow this course in their hearts. Not a day goes by when I do not question and regret the decision of our Cold War leaders to place faith and nuclear power in Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 M.P. Cato: Although they may have been born 'poor', none of the men you cited were 'poor' at the time they ran for the presidency or were appointed to office. I think the point of reference here, is that a 'good' man with his head on right and his pockets empty could never be 'elected' or 'appointed' to any office. ___________________________________ I feel that the U.S. is slowly but surely retrograding to the pre-Teddy Roosevelt era. The progress, in terms of liberty and economic security, made during the F.D. Roosevelt - Nixon period, has been and continues to be eroded by the post Nixon administrations. See Viggen's post. There never has been; nor is there now; nor do I believe that there ever will be a nation run by its people for the benefit of its people. Jefferson's view that the U.S. should have a 'revolution' every generation is as true now as it was at the nation's founding. Tom Paine has been excised from the nation's school system and deleted from the nation's memory. The U.S. Constitution, in its original unamended form, was a corporate charter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Different systems work for different folks. "Best" is relative and subjective. C'mon PP, this is the Arena, thats a politically correct answer. I didn't mean to be PC, was just throwing something in to explain the move to the arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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