No Country Is Perfect, But The U.s. System Is The Closest To Perfect,

[phil25]

Brought forward from the Bible v Science thread:

 

This statement was made by someone:

 

No country is perfect, but the U.S. system is the closest to perfect, followed by Israel....

 

I asked whether the statement was meant to be serious.

 

Gaius Octavius added:

 

"Cardinal Lustiger of France was denied entry into Israel because he had converted from Judaism to Catholicism.... What are the chances of an Arab citizen of Israel - Christian or Moslem - becoming president or prime minister of Israel?"

 

I transferred the question here to avoid contaminating the popular Bible/Science thread.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts. In particular, does anyone wish to defend the opening statement? Or think it true? I have never seen it advanced elsewhere.

 

Phil

[Primus Pilus]

Pre-emptively moved this as I expect more of the same....

 

Different systems work for different folks. "Best" is relative and subjective.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

If the people are happy with what they have I can't complain for them unless their suffering is obvious.

[Viggen]

The U.s. System Is The Closest To Perfect

 

Perfect to what standard? And what system?

 

cheers

viggen

[Ludovicus]

What does this question have to do with the subject of this website: The Roman Empire?

 

As a citizen of the US, I find the answer to this question unfortunate. At this moment I am watching a CBS news report on how New Orleans is not ready for a category 3 huricane. I have family in Italy. Until the early 1980's they were definitely worse off than my parents and me in Ohio. This is no longer true. My Italian cousins enjoy a better standard of living and a better democracy than we in the USA do now.

[Ursus]

What does this question have to do with the subject of this website: The Roman Empire?

 

 

Absolutely nothing .... which is why it is in the Arena folder. This is an area of the site where the off-topic and subjective can be debated without disturbing the sanctity of the more respectable portions of the site.

 

Think of this place as UNRV's ghetto ..... don't come in here unless you're looking for a fight.

[Gaius Octavius]

Some would disagree with the statement. For example the Dutch, Austrians and God forbid the French! The Scandinavians. Dare I mention Germany! Not, of course, Britain or Italy. How does Canada fit into this?

 

What is this business about FISA warrantless searches? The Supreme Court appointing presidents and 'money = speech'?

 

Would the maker of the originating statement please address the two statements contained in Post #1?

Edited August 27, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Moonlapse]

Much of our current system was borrowed from the Deutsches Reich.

[Gaius Octavius]

Much of our current system was borrowed from the Deutsches Reich.

 

I believe that German was once considered to be one of the 'official' languages of the U.S, but would you please relate what these borrowings are?

Edited August 27, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[tflex]

This statement was made by someone:

 

No country is perfect, but the U.S. system is the closest to perfect, followed by Israel....

 

Alright I confess, I'm the guilty party. :usaflag:

 

I asked whether the statement was meant to be serious.

 

Yes it was, and America is the beacon of democracy and freedom. There are actually people still debating whether they should spy on phone conversations after 9/11. I think a judge recently rejected this, frankly I find it ridicolous that they need permission from a judge, but it is a great example of the rule of law in the U.S. Had this been any other country there wouldn't even be a debate about such an issue after such a tragedy.

 

Gaius Octavius added:

 

"Cardinal Lustiger of France was denied entry into Israel because he had converted from Judaism to Catholicism.... What are the chances of an Arab citizen of Israel - Christian or Moslem - becoming president or prime minister of Israel?"

 

I'm Lebanese, so I guess that makes me an Arab, I was in Lebanon during the last Israeli strikes, there were bombs falling all around us, one could have easily landed on my head, but everytime I heard a an Israeli plane in the distance I was cheering, cheering that they would bomb the middle east to it's senses, and I wasn't the only one. There's a reason for that, I don't want to turn this thread into Israel vs Palestine or the middle east, but those arabs living in Israel who breed terrorism are living in better conditions than they would in any other arab state, infact no other arab country wants anything to do with them. The freedom in Israel is not even comparable to the rest of the middle east, and to have so much democracy and freedom in such a volatile region thats hell bent on destroying you, is truly amazing.

 

Different systems work for different folks. "Best" is relative and subjective.

 

C'mon PP, this is the Arena, thats a politically correct answer.

Edited August 27, 2006 by tflex

[Gaius Octavius]

tflex, your post didn't respond to my two statements.

Remember then that you are the one who decided the two most perfect countries.

[phil25]

Quite frankly tflex, I find your statement absolutely ridiculous!!

 

It is true that the US system does guarantee "freedom" so long as that is defined as a lack of restraint on individuals.

 

But most civilised European countries with a maturity as nation states (millenia in the main rather than 200 or so years) have found that freedom actually equates to seeking to find a measure of equality for all (to help and support the less able and priveleged/wealthy.

 

As an outside observer, the US seems to be a heven of corruption, an oligarchy run by big business, in which no poor man (however talented) could ever run successfully for high office.

 

As for Israel - ironically it seems to have become a fascist state (I suspect under the influence of former Sovier emigres) attacking its neighbours at will and persecuting the Palestinians in a way I find uncomfortably close to the pattern of the Third Reich.

 

I have read US and British authors draw direct links between the two countries in that the US (at least the republican element) is impressed by and influenced heavily by Likud party policies.

 

Sorry to be so blunt but I found the statement you made offensive and not very clever. You are, of course entitled to your view - but I will draw my own conclusions as to your rationality.

 

Phil

[Moonlapse]

Much of our current system was borrowed from the Deutsches Reich.

 

I believe that German was once considered to be one of the 'official' languages of the U.S, but would you please relate what these borrowings are?

Reichsbank 1876 > Federal Reserve System 1913

Old Age and Invalidity Insurance Law 1889 > Social Security Act 1935

Survivors' pensions for widows 1911 > Mother's Aid (the foundation of modern U.S. 'welfare') 1935

Centralized compulsory schooling ~1871 > Centralized compulsory schooling 1918

 

Edit: The U.S. Army was reformed in the late 19th century and included principles established by the Prussians.

 

These are standouts, there may be more but I haven't delved for them. At the time, Prussia was looked to for innovative solutions for 'utopian' social management. Despite any justification for this bureaucracy, its roots are more uncomfortable than most realize. It certainly was not envisioned by our founders. In fact, they warned against it.

[M. Porcius Cato]

As an outside observer, the US seems to be a heven of corruption, an oligarchy run by big business, in which no poor man (however talented) could ever run successfully for high office.

 

The number of poor men who have not only run successfully for high office but also attained the presidency is very great indeed. In the last century alone, we have had presidents and secretaries of state of humble to middle income origins, inlcuding Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Dwight Eisenhower, and Harry Truman. Colin Powell, our secretary of state, was the son of sharecroppers and the grandson of slaves. If to an outside observer it seems that the US is closed to the ambitious poor, the outside observer is as woefully underinformed of US history as is the typical American uninformed of non-US history.

 

As for corruption, there are international bodies and consortia of scholars that study this topic, and they are nearly unanimous in their agreement that corruption of civil servants in the US is remarkably rare. If I attempted to bribe a traffic cop in Manhattan or Minneapolis, all hell would break lose; if I tried to avoid it in Moscow or Mexico City, it would be very difficult.

[tflex]

tflex, your post didn't respond to my two statements.

Remember then that you are the one who decided the two most perfect countries.

 

I said they are closest to perfect, don't misquote me dear Gauis.

 

I responded and frankly to argue that Israel is anything but the gem of the middle east is pointless, it's simply a fact. I've been to Israel under a different passport, if I use my Lebanese passport, when I return to Lebanon I can expect to go to jail for the rest of my life no questions asked. I've also been to Saudi Arabia and many other arab countries, nope not much freedom in those countries, and all you need to to do is look at the make up of local arab governments, regimes and laws, then compare them to Israel. As for the other statement, I'm not aware of it, so I can't comment.

 

Quite frankly tflex, I find your statement absolutely ridiculous!!

 

Ridicolous only applies to your daft statement comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, thats not just ridicolous, but plain dumb.

 

But most civilised European countries with a maturity as nation states (millenia in the main rather than 200 or so years) have found that freedom actually equates to seeking to find a measure of equality for all (to help and support the less able and priveleged/wealthy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that or equality, but if you're saying we should support the poor at the expense of the rich and hard-workers, that seems to be undemocratic to punish the rich for being rich and reward the poor for being poor, doesn't make sense. The most successful European countries that you talk about such as England, have the least amount of socialism in them, and thats not a coincidence.

 

As an outside observer, the US seems to be a heven of corruption, an oligarchy run by big business, in which no poor man (however talented) could ever run successfully for high office.

 

Thats too funny to even take seriously, the U.S. is among the lowest in corruption in the world by most credible estimates, and by practically living here you would know that. It's just that other countries don't go around broadcasting and exposing corruption on international T.V. like they do in the U.S., they prefer to keep it under the table away from the media, and shut up whoever tries to expose it :shutup:

 

As for Israel - ironically it seems to have become a fascist state (I suspect under the influence of former Sovier emigres) attacking its neighbours at will and persecuting the Palestinians in a way I find uncomfortably close to the pattern of the Third Reich.

 

If you're going to make a statement like that there must be proof, specific incidents, I don't recall Israel attacking it's neighbours for the sake of murdering them, it's called self defense, but for some reason when Israel does it, it's called an unprovoked attack, just like the war with Hizbullah. There is nothing unprovoked about killing Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil and kidnapping others to help Iran out, there is nothing unprovoked about Hamas a terrorist organization that exists only to drive Israel into the meditarranean by sending suicide bombers into Israel for the sole purpose of murdering innocent civilians. If I was Israel, I'de notch up preemptive strikes a bit, they seem to work. The IDF endagers it's own life to preserve the enemy's civilian population, it's ridicolous and a crime against Israeli soldiers by their own military leaders and politicians. In a war, you don't broadcast a future attack on television and name the place and time just to save civilian life while helping your enemy at the same time, you don't drop leaflets to civilians and give them a few days to leave while the enemy prepares, you don't have to use precision guided bombs, but Israel did all of that risking it's own troops and failing to accomplish it's mission, when all they had to do was carpet bomb Lebanon or Gaza like the allies did in WW2, and instead of having 1,000 casualties, they would have 100,000 in such a dense and small area, and at the same time accomplish their mission of eliminating a terrorist organization supported by Iran on it's borders. Israel's actions don't seem to be consistent with the third reich and nazi policies, only if you have something personal against Israel you would reach such a conclusions. As for Israeli's enemies they have no care for civilian life, they load katyusha rockets and suicide bombs with bolts for maximum civilian casualties, most of the casualties in south Lebanon and my village were killed from stray katyushas that failed to reach their intended targets and landed on Lebanese villages, actually by most estimates 50% of katyushas fired landed inside Lebanon, they also like to fire rockets from civilian buildings, and good old Arafat use to hide in residential buildings. Oh and Phil where are the concentration camps and gas chambers in Israel? No, you need to make a better case than that.

 

Sorry to be so blunt but I found the statement you made offensive and not very clever. You are, of course entitled to your view - but I will draw my own conclusions as to your rationality.

 

 

First, I expected such a reaction from you, it seems everytime a positive statement is made about the U.S., it sticks out like a needle to you and you pick it out. I also didn't accuse another counrty of being Nazi like based on nothing, and I stand by my original statement, and would like to add that the U.S., western Europe and England in particular, plus Israel are model countries for the world. I'm actually against globalism, but it's gonna happen anyway, no one can stop it, so thats my opinion.

Edited August 27, 2006 by tflex