Cato the Elder Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I was watching Warrior Challenge: Romans last night and the trainer mentioned that all of the training they did on the show was based on a primary source Roman training manual. I could not catch the name but think it started with a V. I thought it sounded like Velgius or something like that. I cannot find it from searching. Does anyone know of this or other primary source training manuals? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I was watching Warrior Challenge: Romans last night and the trainer mentioned that all of the training they did on the show was based on a primary source Roman training manual. I could not catch the name but think it started with a V. I thought it sounded like Velgius or something like that. I cannot find it from searching. Does anyone know of this or other primary source training manuals? Thanks Vegetius, De Re Militari A translation is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 That's so cool! When I have more time I'll have to read it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antiochus of Seleucia Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 That's awesome! Ditto for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 (edited) A fantastic source of information, cheers PP I've just been browsing through it and there's one part that puzzles me a bit (granted that's not very hard), it's in book I : Selection and training of levies, it states that the standard for the cavalry of the wings and for the infantry or the first legionary cohorts was fixed at six feet tall or at least five foot ten inches Now i was under the impression that the ancient Romans were quite a small race in general with the average height of about 5ft 8", is this just a myth or a figment of my wild imagination Edited August 25, 2006 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 5'8" isn't THAT small (I'm 5'7". granted, I do feel short when trying to reach things at work, I have to stand on a crate) I really don't think that the ancient Romans were that small, however it is widely believed (possibly due to archeological finds, I'm not sure) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Selection and training of levies, it states that the standard for the cavalry of the wings and for the infantry or the first legionary cohorts was fixed at six feet tall or at least five foot ten inches Now i was under the impression that the ancient Romans were quite a small race in general with the average height of about 5ft 8", is this just a myth or a figment of my wild imagination Roman measurements were shorter than English imperial. A Roman pes (foot) was 12 unciae just as imperial feet are now 12 inches. However, a Roman uncia (inch) was only about .97 the distance of a modern inch. Therefore, a Roman foot was approximately 11.6 inches compared to a modern foot. With that in mind, a Roman who was 6 feet tall according to Vegetius would actually measure approximately 5 feet 8 inches using modern measurements. The lower end (5 feet 10 inches according to Vegetius) would be approximately 5 feet 6 inches in today's measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato the Elder Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I was watching Warrior Challenge: Romans last night and the trainer mentioned that all of the training they did on the show was based on a primary source Roman training manual. I could not catch the name but think it started with a V. I thought it sounded like Velgius or something like that. I cannot find it from searching. Does anyone know of this or other primary source training manuals? Thanks Vegetius, De Re Militari A translation is here. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.Clodius Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 And romans tended to be small in stature anyway due to diet. Not a heavy meat based diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato the Elder Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Here is a short article on Vegetius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Here is a short article on Vegetius. Just a small discrepancy between the wikpedia article and the source that PP gave us On wikpedia it says the book was dedicated to the emperor Theodosius The Great and in the other it says it was dedicated to the emperor Valentinian Which one was it?????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 I would like to point out that the manual written by Vegetius was very late in roman times. Vegetius bemoans the falling standards of the legions and his manual was intended to help return roman soldiery to their former glory. He failed in that respect, but he left us a priceless resource. It must be understood that these standards and drills are probably not the same as the earlier principate, or the republican armies, although I accept that he based his work on traditional methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Here is a short article on Vegetius. Just a small discrepancy between the wikpedia article and the source that PP gave us On wikpedia it says the book was dedicated to the emperor Theodosius The Great and in the other it says it was dedicated to the emperor Valentinian Which one was it?????????????? It makes more sense that the work was dedicated to Theodosius since he clearly was more prominent at the time, but there are a number of possibilities. Valentinian I was dead by 375, and the book was not yet written Gratian, Valentinian's immediate successor was not a soldier and the book being dedicated to him wouldn't make sense. Valentinian II was only 4 years old when proclaimed Augustus by his father's legions and was probably still quite young when the book was finished. Theodosius presided in the east (in addition to having great influence in the west) and Vegetius has been associated as being a Count in Theodosius' court (though this is unproven). Theodosius was noted for military skill, and it was this skill (in addition to his familial rank) which got him promoted to Augustus in the first place. Anyway, the problem is that Vegetius doesn't actually say who the book is dedicated to, but uses such generic words as princeps, emperor, majesty, sovereign. The dedication in Latin Antiquia temporibus mos fuit bonarum artium studia mandare litteris atque in libros redacta offerre principibus, quia neque recte aliquid inchoatur, nisi post Deum fauerit imperator, neque quemquam magis decet uel meliora scire uel plura quam principem, cuius doctrina omnibus potest prodesse subiectis. Quod Octauianum Augustum ac bonos dehinc principes libenter habuisse frequentibus declaratur exemplis. Sic regnantium testimoniis crebuit eloquentia, dum non culpatur audacia. Hac ego imitatione conpulsus dum considero clementiam uestram ausibus litterarum magis ignoscere posse quam ceteros, tanto inferiorem me antiquis scriptoribus esse uix sensi licet in hoc opusculo nec uerborum concinnitas sit necessaria nec acumen ingenii, sed labor diligens ac fidelis, ut, quae apud diuersos historicos uel armorum disciplinam docentes dispersa et inuoluta celantur, pro utilitate Romana proferantur in medium. De dilectu igitur atque exercitatione tironum per quosdam gradus et titulos antiquam consuetudinem conamur ostendere; non quo tibi, imperator inuicte, ista uideantur incognita, sed ut, quae sponte pro reipublicae salute disponis, agnoscas olim custodisse Romani imperii conditores et in hoc paruo libello, quicquid de maximis rebus semperque necessariis requirendum credis, inuenias. In English It has been an old custom for authors to offer to their Princes the fruits of their studies in belles letters, from a persuasion that no work can be published with propriety but under the auspices of the Emperor, and that the knowledge of a Prince should be more general, and of the most important kind, as its influence is felt so keenly by all his subjects. We have many instances of the favorable reception which Augustus and his illustrious successors conferred on the works presented to them; and this encouragement of the Sovereign made the sciences flourish. The consideration of Your Majesty's superior indulgence for attempts of this sort, induced me to follow this example, and makes me at the same time almost forget my own inability when compared with the ancient writers. One advantage, however, I derive from the nature of this work, as it requires no elegance of expression, or extraordinary share of genius, but only great care and fidelity in collecting and explaining, for public use, the instructions and observations of our old historians of military affairs, or those who wrote expressly concerning them. My design in this treatise is to exhibit in some order the peculiar customs and usages of the ancients in the choice and discipline of their new levies. Nor do I presume to offer this work.to Your Majesty from a supposition that you are not acquainted with every part of its contents; but that you may see that the same salutary dispositions and regulations which your own wisdom prompts You to establish for the happiness of the Empire, were formerly observed by the founders thereof; and that Your Majesty may find with ease in this abridgement whatever is most useful on so necessary and important a subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Sounds like he may have had someone specific in mind, but any emporers (still living past or present or even future) can say "He dedicated it to ME!!!" and Vegetius avoids trouble because the emporer can't not like whoever he chose to dedicate it to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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