Semitic paganisms

[Segestan]

Saturn is the Jewish sects God Moloch. The god of sacrifices. The God whose Temple is Mount Zion.

 

 

regards,

[Favonius Cornelius]

Saturn is the Jewish sects God Moloch. The god of sacrifices. The God whose Temple is Mount Zion.

 

 

regards,

 

Huh? Jewish polytheism?

[WotWotius]

Saturn is the Jewish sects God Moloch. The god of sacrifices. The God whose Temple is Mount Zion.

 

 

regards,

 

 

Don't you mean Semitic sect?

 

As mentioned earlier, Judaism was polytheistic.

[Segestan]

Moloch was a phoenician God, whose statue and Temple were in the Valley of Hinnom, at the foot of Mount Sion. The place derived its name Tophet from the musical instrument -tuph- used to drown the cries of the children who were sacrificed. Hence also the names of Tophet, Gehinnom, or Ge-henna, given to the place of eternal torments.

 

" Moloch , horrid King, besmeared with blood

Of human sacrifice , and parents tears;

Though for the noise of drums and timbels loud

Their children's cries unheard , that passed through fire,

To his grim idol"

 

The High Places mentioned above were those which Abraham , Isaac , and Jacob had sacrificed to the True God, and for which the people always preserved great respect. Here they presisted in offering sacrifices in spite of the prohibition which confined such religious service to the temple alone. It was the worship of Moloch-Baal that became the religion of many cultures the most famous was in Carthage. Carthage was a culture founded on Judaic principals they spoke hebrew.

 

regards,

[WotWotius]

Wasn't Tanit also a popular deity amongst Carthaginians? If so, do you have any information on her?

[Gaius Octavius]

Segestan:

The Carthaginians spoke Hebrew?

[Andrew Dalby]

Segestan:

The Carthaginians spoke Hebrew?

No, they didn't. They spoke Punic, which was a variant of Phoenician, a West Semitic language (and so is Aramaic; Hebrew may be a member of the same group, but quite a bit different). St Augustine, who was bilingual in Latin and Punic, found Aramaic easy to learn in later life but Hebrew quite difficult.

[P.Clodius]

Segestan:

The Carthaginians spoke Hebrew?

No, they didn't. They spoke Punic, which was a variant of Phoenician, a West Semitic language (and so is Aramaic; Hebrew may be a member of the same group, but quite a bit different). St Augustine, who was bilingual in Latin and Punic, found Aramaic easy to learn in later life but Hebrew quite difficult.

Interesting...Given that St Augustine is obviously christian and therefore relatively late, how come Punic is dead? Why is there no written punic texts anywhere?

[Ursus]

Africa, the seat of Punic influence in the Western Mediterranean, rapidly became one of the most Romanized (and one of the most prosperous) provinces after the Third Punic War. I surmise much like the Etruscans and Celtic tribes living along the Mediterranean, the inhabitants simply abandoned much of their native culture since integrating into Roman culture was so profitable.

[docoflove1974]

Africa, the seat of Punic influence in the Western Mediterranean, rapidly became one of the most Romanized (and one of the most prosperous) provinces after the Third Punic War. I surmise much like the Etruscans and Celtic tribes living along the Mediterranean, the inhabitants simply abandoned much of their native culture since integrating into Roman culture was so profitable.

 

Funny enough, I just finished that part of AD's Language in Danger...and I agree with him that much of the 'staying power' (or lack thereof) depends on the level of bilingualism, the presence and use of a written language, and the language policies of the 'conquering' people. Here I would also add speaker perceptions--if you were conquered by X group, who did not require you to change your language use whilst under their guardianship, but you see that knowing X's language you will move up in the world, then chances are you and your speech community will shift increasingly to the use of X's language. All of this is done usually at a slow pace--it takes generations of speakers before a total switch is noticed.

 

Language use and change is a funny thing...every language is spoken (or, in the case of sign language, expressed via signs), but not every langauge is written. And while oral traditions will keep a non-written langauge afloat, once a society comes to rely on written records (be they laws, transactions, or a colonizer's influence), it seems that a purely oral language will eventually phase out.

[Pertinax]

This is a little like the adoption of accents, in movement between perceived social groups then? Intonation/rythmn and timbre are adopted to achieve a "willingness to communicate" within that group. So the linguistic survival is based on a desire to assimilate a set of social mores? Hence no Hunish dialcts in central France.

[Ursus]

Language seems to follow power most of the time.

 

But this thread is supposed to be about paganism.

 

If however everyone is interested in a broader discussion of Punic culture, it could easily be sent to the Forum Peregrini....

[Segestan]

The Carthaginians were indebted to the Tyrians , not only for their origin , but for thier manners , language , customs, laws, religion, and their great application to commerce. They spoke the same language with the Tyrians, and these the same language with the Canaanites and Israelites; that is , the Hebrew tongue, or at least a language , which was entirely derived from it. Their names had commonly some particular meaning: Thus Hanno signified -Gracious, bountiful ; Dido - amiable, or well-beloved; Sophonisba- one who keepsfaithfully her husbands secrets. From the spirit of religion they likewise joined the name of God to their own , conformably to the genius--that is the Daemon- of the Hebrews. They also used the term 'Poeni Hoplite 'because they originated from phoenicia.

 

 

regards,

[docoflove1974]

This is a little like the adoption of accents, in movement between perceived social groups then? Intonation/rythmn and timbre are adopted to achieve a "willingness to communicate" within that group. So the linguistic survival is based on a desire to assimilate a set of social mores? Hence no Hunish dialcts in central France.

 

Much like Ursus hinted at, it's a power and money thing. My dad always said, "follow the money," and if you follow the trade partners, and who held more sway, oftentimes you'll see patterns in language change. But not always! You point to a lack of Hunish in central France...an even better example is the many Germanic tribes that settled and 'conquered' after the fall of the Empire...yet Spain and the Italian peninsula are Romance-speaking. Or Norman French in England!

[Andrew Dalby]

This is a little like the adoption of accents, in movement between perceived social groups then? Intonation/rythmn and timbre are adopted to achieve a "willingness to communicate" within that group. So the linguistic survival is based on a desire to assimilate a set of social mores? Hence no Hunish dialcts in central France.

Some of my neighbours have pretty strange accents ... but Hunnish? Not so far as I know.