How Did Italian Arise?

[Gini]

Placito Capuano! Thank you for that pearl Not being a historical linguist I had never heard of it but yes it is very similar to modern Italian - mainly some spelling differences but still close to the sound. what interests me is that this is 900 and Rome still had a senate in the 500's no doubt using classical Latin - so how did the language used change that much in a few hundred years when there is relatively little chnagefrom 900 to now?

[Ludovicus]

Placito Capuano! Thank you for that pearl Not being a historical linguist I had never heard of it but yes it is very similar to modern Italian - mainly some spelling differences but still close to the sound. what interests me is that this is 900 and Rome still had a senate in the 500's no doubt using classical Latin - so how did the language used change that much in a few hundred years when there is relatively little chnagefrom 900 to now?

 

 

Language is changing constantly. The last Roman Senate may have published its businesss in classical Latin (as far as I know, nothing of the last sessions has been preserved) but what those senators were speaking would have been an entirely different animal. A lot of evidence points to the loss of the case system (the noun and adjective declensions) in spoken Latin by the year 500.

 

The Placito Capuano are written records of oral testimonies. Keep in mind that the Church and the various Italian monarchies were still publishing documents that were in Latin, tho not classical.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Ludovicus

[docoflove1974]

The Placito Capuano are written records oral testimonies. Keep in mind that the Church and the various Italian monarchies were still publishing documents that were in Latin, tho not classical.

 

Also, it's not really until the 12th century that we get 'consistent' documents in any form of Italian. This is relatively late in comparison to French (8-9th c.), Spanish (9-10th c.), Galician Portuguese (10th c.) and others.

[Northern Neil]

... Latin is very different to modern day Italian and the Empire was overrun by Germanic races when it crumbled so how did Italian and the modern race arise? Modern Italians to me seem different to my idea of Romans in fact in some ways almost the opposite of the organised methodical Romans.

 

Getting back to this original point, I regret that I do not have the linguistic credentials of some of my friends here. I am, however, a French speaker. Whilst acknowledging that there is a strong Latin heritage with respect to French (words such as 'Fenetre' for instance) I would agree with the above comment - if it had been made with respect to French. A sound heritage yes, but somewhat evolved from the original. I must however disagree with the above comment with respect to Italian. Having ditched France as a holiday venue for the time being and travelled recently in Italy, I must say that I find that, far from being 'very different' to Latin, I am amazed how little modern Italian has actually evolved from the original Latin.

 

Regarding Modern Italians versus methodical Romans, this is a purely subjective view based on nothing more than trends arising from historical political situations. A hundred years ago, the British had an empire which covered much of the globe. Now it doesn't, and its government is prepared to render it a protectorate of the US - however, its people remain the same.

[Gini]

... Latin is very different to modern day Italian and the Empire was overrun by Germanic races when it crumbled so how did Italian and the modern race arise? Modern Italians to me seem different to my idea of Romans in fact in some ways almost the opposite of the organised methodical Romans.

 

Getting back to this original point, I regret that I do not have the linguistic credentials of some of my friends here. I am, however, a French speaker. Whilst acknowledging that there is a strong Latin heritage with respect to French (words such as 'Fenetre' for instance) I would agree with the above comment - if it had been made with respect to French. A sound heritage yes, but somewhat evolved from the original. I must however disagree with the above comment with respect to Italian. Having ditched France as a holiday venue for the time being and travelled recently in Italy, I must say that I find that, far from being 'very different' to Latin, I am amazed how little modern Italian has actually evolved from the original Latin.

 

Regarding Modern Italians versus methodical Romans, this is a purely subjective view based on nothing more than trends arising from historical political situations. A hundred years ago, the British had an empire which covered much of the globe. Now it doesn't, and its government is prepared to render it a protectorate of the US - however, its people remain the same.

I find a lot of similarity with the Latin-Romancelanguages northern Nell but speaking Italian does not make me understand Latin - I refer you to an earlier comparison by docoflove which sets out a lot of differences. Spanish now is a different matter and even French is advantaged by Italian. The languages sound very different also- there is an earlier post that refers to the clanking sound of Latin compared to the flowing sound of Italian. I have a gut feeling (how scientific!!) that the general poplace were more Italian like however. I find it surprising that there document mentioned a few posts earlier around 900 is understandable to me 1200 years later - but it is very different to Latin!1 What coused the change - did the polulation speak a different dialect to the formal language - etc?

The subjective view is related to the achievments and behaviour of the civilisation which is well recorded and does make the Romans appear different. and we are talking about a much larger time froma that 100 years. The mystery remains and it is fascinating

Edited August 13, 2006 by Gini

[Ginevra]

I'm Italian. I can speak French and Latin.

Northern Neil is right...

[Ludovicus]

Here's the "Ritmo Cassinese" from the 12th century, Latium/Campana border area of Italy:

 

Frate meu, de quillu mundu bengo, illoco sejo, et ibi me combengo.

Quillu, auditu stu respusu cusci bonu ed amurusu,

Dice: "Frate, sedi jusu; non te paira despectusu.

Multu fora golejusu ticu fabellare ad usu. Hodie mai plu non andare.

C'a ttebe boljo multu addemarandare; serbire, se mme digni commandare.

Bolzer' audire nubelle de sse toe dulci fabelle...

 

 

Acccording to Pei "fora" comes from Latin "fureram."

"Bolzer," from Late Latin "volseram" for Classical Latin "volueram."

"Golejusu" from "gulosu."

"Boljo" from "volo"

 

From my own experience with my grandparents' Abruzzese dialect I can see that "cusci" is the Standard Italian "cosi`"

 

This "Ritmo" can be found with many other Late Latin and early Italian texts in the appendix of "The Italian Language" by Mario Pei, 1941.

 

 

Anyone care to translate the entire piece?

[Gini]

But Ginevra does your linguistic background advantage more than your native language?

Latin aside, certainly i didn't come across many northern Italians who spoke much French at all -

[Ginevra]

I can speak any dialect, at least I can understand the ones of my region but if someone from the south speaks in his I dont understand a word...

And all the young people are like me. We only speak Standard Italian, as you call it.

About French... I just study it at school ^ ^

 

Frate meu, de quillu mundu bengo, illoco sejo, et ibi me combengo.

Quillu, auditu stu respusu cusci bonu ed amurusu,

Dice: "Frate, sedi jusu; non te paira despectusu.

Multu fora golejusu ticu fabellare ad usu. Hodie mai plu non andare.

C'a ttebe boljo multu addemarandare; serbire, se mme digni commandare.

Bolzer' audire nubelle de sse toe dulci fabelle...

 

 

..it sounds very similar to those dialects I've just said I can't understand. Anyway, thanks to latin, I can understand the general meaning...but sorry, it's to hard to translate it in Italian and after in English...

[Gaius Octavius]

Here's the "Ritmo Cassinese" from the 12th century, Latium/Campana border area of Italy:

 

Frate meu, de quillu mundu bengo, illoco sejo, et ibi me combengo.

Quillu, auditu stu respusu cusci bonu ed amurusu,

Dice: "Frate, sedi jusu; non te paira despectusu.

Multu fora golejusu ticu fabellare ad usu. Hodie mai plu non andare.

C'a ttebe boljo multu addemarandare; serbire, se mme digni commandare.

Bolzer' audire nubelle de sse toe dulci fabelle...

 

 

Acccording to Pei "fora" comes from Latin "fureram."

"Bolzer," from Late Latin "volseram" for Classical Latin "volueram."

"Golejusu" from "gulosu."

"Boljo" from "volo"

 

From my own experience with my grandparents' Abruzzese dialect I can see that "cusci" is the Standard Italian "cosi`"

 

This "Ritmo" can be found with many other Late Latin and early Italian texts in the appendix of "The Italian Language" by Mario Pei, 1941.

 

 

Anyone care to translate the entire piece?

I understand most of the words, but I can't make any sense of it.

I note the doubling up of consonants at the beginnings of words. The b-v-(and w) transition. (Grimm's Law?). The 'u' endings. These are retained in the Neapolitan dialect and are easily heard in Bruno Venturi's recordings. The Italian dialects meld into the French of Provence. This can be heard in the folk songs recorded in the field by Alan Lomax, and those sung by Orietta Berti. 'Cosi' is pronounced 'coosi' in Neapolitan.

 

NOW I MUST CONFESS TO A MAJOR BLUNDER. In an earlier post, I cited Lowell Thomas as the person who recorded folk songs after WWII. It was Alan Lomax (above). My apologies to all.

 

A lullaby from Lillas: (I can't supply the accent marks.)

 

Nini, mon pupon,

Fai lu sonno,

Nini, mon pupon,

Fai lu sonnu.

 

From Monferrina - part of a patriotic song.

 

Eviva il Monfra'

Eviva, vous....

 

Again from Monfra'

 

E bundi, bundi, bundi,.... (Translate that; really not hard.)

 

O! Ye Tyrants of the Forum, please allow this to slip by your itchy fingers as it is especially for My Lords Pantagathus and Pertinax and the learned Dr. Dalby. (Doll, Ginevra and Gini to boot.) Promise to try to be good in the future.

 

Maria Giuanna

 

E ha passaie sor dotor,

-Cosa e, Maria Giuanna, oh,

Cosa e, Maria Giuanna, oh,

trulla lalla. -

 

-Se savisse, sor dotor,

Mi l'hai tanta mal da testa, oh,

Mi l'hai tanta mal da testa, oh,

trulla lalla. -

 

-Sa i bevisse nen tan vin,

Mal la testa passeria, oh,

Mal la testa passeria, oh,

trulla lalla. -

 

(Verse missing - maybe Ginevra can supply.)

 

Alle quand' chi meuira mi,

Veui cam sotro de 'na crota, oh,

Veui cam sotro de 'na croto, oh,

trulla lalla. -

 

Demmigiane par cusin,

Cu ses bote per candele, oh,

Cu ses bote per candele, oh,

trulla lalla

 

Italian melding into French, no? Remind anyone of "Les Chevaliers de la Table Ronde'? Same tune.

[Ginevra]

these songs are so stupid! I had never heard them before... of course I perfectly understand them, but I can't help for the missing verse, I don't know where to find it.

I think they aren't traditional songs of my region. The most famous here are "Oh mia bela madunina" and "la bela la va al fosso". If you like, I can find the lyrics and post them.

 

About the "Ritmo Cassinese"... I read it in modern Italian, it's very nice, but here you posted only verses 40-52:

[...] Fratello mio, da quel mondo vengo

l

[Gaius Octavius]

Ginevra, did you ever think that that was what he was trying to politely say? :horse:

 

Bella, without going pazz', I would like the lyrics and I am sure Docoflove would for her research. But don't go crazy doing it.

 

I get about as much from the 'Italian dialect' as I do from the original 'Ritmo'.

 

Except for Ludovicus (since he knows the right answer), it might be a pleasant exercise for the Latin :notworthy: and Romance language speakers to try to translate the Ritmo, word for word, and supply the language source. If there are any takers, I'll start. Or you may.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Ginevra]

No problem to fin the lyrics, the songs are so famous! Ok, here you are. This is the song of Milan.

 

A diesen la canzon la nass a Napuli

e francament g'han minga tutti i tort

Surriento, Margellina tucc'i popoli

i avran cant

[Gaius Octavius]

Ginevra, Thank you!, Thank you!, Thank you!

 

To all:

I think that it has been shown that as one marches north from Sicily, the languages smoothly transform into the 'official' French. In Italy, the neighboring provincials can understand each other without much difficulty. However, a Sicilian in the Piedmont might just as well speak Turkish. Thus my question is: Why didn't Sicilian appear in Milan, thus causing a lingual 'break' between provinces and Ligurian in Sicily, causing a barrier at the Boot? Same Latin to start with. I am going to guess that the pre-'official' Latin tongues have something to do with it. But then the same problem (to my mind) arises with these languages.

[docoflove1974]

Ginevra, Thank you!, Thank you!, Thank you!

 

No kidding...I thank you immensely, Ginevra...I'm gonna have fun (whenever I get this damned dissertation approved).

 

Thus my question is: Why didn't Sicilian appear in Milan, thus causing a lingual 'break' between provinces and Ligurian in Sicily, causing a barrier at the Boot? Same Latin to start with. I am going to guess that the pre-'official' Latin tongues have something to do with it. But then the same problem (to my mind) arises with these languages.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding your question, Don Tom