How Did Italian Arise?

[Gaius Octavius]

Let me try it this way. Start with dialect #1 in Sicily, and march in proper sequence up the Boot, to Provence as #20. Why didn't dialect #1 appear in slot #5, rather than where it is, causing a break in the sequence, and making it difficult, if not impossible, for their neighbors in slots #4 and #6 to understand them?

 

Any clearer? Again, same Latin, etc.

 

The one who lives in an odd world,

Joe Stalin

Edited August 16, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Andrew Dalby]

Ginevra, Thank you!, Thank you!, Thank you!

 

To all:

I think that it has been shown that as one marches north from Sicily, the languages smoothly transform into the 'official' French. In Italy, the neighboring provincials can understand each other without much difficulty. However, a Sicilian in the Piedmont might just as well speak Turkish. Thus my question is: Why didn't Sicilian appear in Milan, thus causing a lingual 'break' between provinces and Ligurian in Sicily, causing a barrier at the Boot? Same Latin to start with. I am going to guess that the pre-'official' Latin tongues have something to do with it. But then the same problem (to my mind) arises with these languages.

 

It's a good question, and there is a reason. Even when there is little long-distance communication (as in medieval times) people still need to communicate over short distances, to their neighbours all around -- at markets and fairs and because neighbours do communicate. Therefore, the original overall language of the Empire (when there WAS long distance communication) gradually split up (because of less communication) but relatively smoothly (because neighbours' dialects always continued to influence one another).

 

If you get a sudden break, a boundary between neighbouring dialects/languages that are very different from one another, it's because:

 

1. that line marks what was at some time in the past a fixed frontier, so fixed that it discouraged local communication

 

and/or

 

2. the languages/dialects had quite different origins; that explains the Romance/Germanic frontier, which has admittedly shifted a bit (hence Trentino/Alto Adige, Flanders, etc.) but essentially preserves a sort of historical memory of the frontier between Roman parts and the un-Romanised Germani.

 

Does that help?

[Romulus Sicanus]

Modern Italians are the same as they were thousands of years ago genetically, racially and ethically. Same with the modern Greeks.

 

The Italian language has its roots from Sicilian School of the early 13th century. Sicilian Language was the first standard language and the first official literary standard. After the Sicilian School lost its support and, after little time, it reappeared in Tuscany where a Siculo-Tuscan School, was formed. Some time later Dante Alighieri who was looking for a language that would be apt to the literary needs of all, after studying 14 regional Italian languages, and even recognizing that the Sicilian language had given the start to the vulgarization of the language, decided to adopt the Tuscan language as the that better could lent itself to literature and a unified language. He called it the Dolce stil nuovo, an with it wrote the Divine Commedy.

 

So in time the Tuscan language affirmed itself as the language of the Italian people.

 

Out've all the Romance languages Italian is the closest to Latin. However the Sicilian language which is still spoken on Sicily I think is even closer .

[Ginevra]

no, Gaius Octavius said it, Sicilian is Turkish!

 

And Dante isn't the first to write in that language. There are many others..

[Ludovicus]

Modern Italians are the same as they were thousands of years ago genetically, racially and ethically.

 

Out've all the Romance languages Italian is the closest to Latin.

 

 

Italy has seen a number of invasions (Germanic) and large immigrations (Albanians, for one.) in the past. I'm not referring to recent arrivals trying to enter the EU via Italy. I don't see how the inhabitants of the Italian peninsula could have perserved their genes without any admixture from other ethnic groups.

 

 

If you compare Italian vocabulary with those of the other Romance languages (Latin-derived modern languages) there's no doubt that Italian is closest to Latin. However, I venture to say that Spanish will beat Italian when we look at which modern Romance language is closest to Latin in syntax and grammar.

 

Comparing Syntax:

 

Latin: Maria videt canem. Videt canem Maria. Canem Maria videt. Maria canem videt. These all mean the same and are all possible ways to say in Latin, "Maria sees the dog."

 

Spanish: Maria ve al perro. Al perro ve Maria. Ve Maria al perro. Al perro ve Maria. Maria al perro ve.

All possible ways of saying "Maria sees the dog."

 

Italian: Maria vide il cane.

I believe that this is the only possible way to say "Maria sees the dog" in Italian.

 

 

The subjunctive mood in Spanish more closely resembles its Latin parent both in spelling and in

frequency of use of everyday conversation than Italian.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Ludovicus

[Gaius Octavius]

Maria ve el perro.?

 

In written Italian, would commas allow a different placement of the words?

[Andrew Dalby]

Some time later Dante Alighieri who was looking for a language that would be apt to the literary needs of all, after studying 14 regional Italian languages, and even recognizing that the Sicilian language had given the start to the vulgarization of the language, decided to adopt the Tuscan language as the that better could lent itself to literature and a unified language. He called it the Dolce stil nuovo, an with it wrote the Divine Commedy.

 

And Dante's language is really beautiful --

 

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita

Mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,

Che la diritta via era smarrita ...

 

But I sometimes wonder, if he had been born in Sicily, would he have chosen Sicilian as the new standard, instead of Tuscan?

[docoflove1974]

Maria ve el perro.?

 

Actually, Ludovicus is right, if the dog is 'known'...but if it's a strange dog (not known to the people), then it would probably be your solution. Sounds horribly confusing, I know; but direct objects which are people receive the 'a'--and when 'a' and 'el' are next to each other, they're contracted to 'al'--but often times tamed animals, particularly dogs and cats, are included in the mix. That's about as clear a description as I can give.

 

In written Italian, would commas allow a different placement of the words?

 

In many times, yes. Same with Spanish, depending on the clefting involved.

 

Ludovicus: depends on which tense of the subjunctive you're talking about. Present subjunctive is no contest: it was passed onto the Romance languages as-is, and in fact is one of the few verbal constructions where the inflection and the semantics behind it remained just about the same. As for what the modern languages used for the past subjunctive, that varies: Italian derives its past subjunctive from the Latin pluperfect subjunctive, and Spanish has/had competing forms deriving from the Latin perfect subjunctive (which is really the one what has won out) and the Latin pluperfect subjunctive (which has seen significantly decreased use since the 19th century, at least).

 

As for your word-order examples: it really depends on what it is you're saying. Yes, it's possible to have all of those orders in Spanish, and I believe that they are also possible in Italian. But it really depends on what the discourse functions are in the conversation--what the topic of discussion is, which party has already been introduced in the discourse, and what the context of the discourse is. Furthermore, I would argue that Al perro Maria ve and Maria al perro ve are highly marked, and would not occur; I would mark them as questionable at best.

 

Bottom line: I wouldn't say that any of the modern Romance languages are 'close' to Latin in terms of syntax, because there have been such leaps in terms of word order, nominal and verbal inflection, roles of function words, and clause construction.

[Ginevra]

In written Italian, would commas allow a different placement of the words?

 

I could say

"il cane, vide, Maria..." or

"Vide, Maria, il cane" and...

yes, "Il cane, Maria, vide".

Even without commas.

But I would be writing a poem or something like that, because it sounds like...uhm...how do you say in English... high, old fashioned-style. If you'd say it speaking, they'd think you're mad.

 

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita

Mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,

Che la diritta via era smarrita ...

I love these lyrics! I read and learnt them (well, not only the first three lines, but the entire Canto) at school at the age of 10.

Because, you see, it is so close to modern Italian that even children, with some help, can read and understand it. ^ ^

 

"Fatti non foste a viver come bruti, ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza".

[Ludovicus]

Bottom line: I wouldn't say that any of the modern Romance languages are 'close' to Latin in terms of syntax, because there have been such leaps in terms of word order, nominal and verbal inflection, roles of function words, and clause construction.

 

 

My specialty is Spanish, not Italian, even tho I grew up with speakers of the Italian dialect Abruzzese. Three and four-year olds in Spanish-speaking countries have little trouble using the subjunctive, at least in the simpler tenses, in sentences such as these, for example:

 

"Mama, quiero que me hagas una avena muy rica. (Mom, I want you to make me some really tasty oatmeal.)

"Si estuviera Papa, me habria regalado algo mejor." (If Dad were here, he would have given me a better gift.)

 

Ginevra, do Italian children just as young use the subjunctive (congiuntivo)?

[Ginevra]

eh eh it depends. If your parents do, you do. Of course you study the subjunctive at school with the other tenses when you're 10-11.

My sister is 10 and she can use it, even if she probably don't know and anyway in the written language you must use it or you're going to have really bad marks. LOL

 

It's a shame but many people of my age when they speak they completely ignore the grammar. Well, they perfectly know how to use it, but they don't care. When they write at school they do (I hope).

I can say you I'm 15 and I attend something like your high-school. I use perfectly all the four tenses of the subjunctives (it would be easy, only one), active and passive forms, regular and irregular verbs, in written and spoken language. And this year I studied all the tenses of the latin subjunctive, and at September I'm going to learn the French ones. So, I can say I know the subjunctive in three languages.

It isn't as difficult as it seems...

Edited August 17, 2006 by Ginevra

[Ludovicus]

eh eh it depends. If your parents do, you do. Of course you study the subjunctive at school with the other tenses when you're 10-11.

My sister is 10 and she can use it, even if she probably don't know and anyway in the written language you must use it or you're going to have really bad marks. LOL

 

It's a shame but many people of my age when they speak they completely ignore the grammar. Well, they perfectly know how to use it, but they don't care. When they write at school they do (I hope).

I can say you I'm 15 and I attend something like your high-school. I use perfectly all the four tenses of the subjunctives (it would be easy, only one), active and passive forms, regular and irregular verbs, in written and spoken language. And this year I studied all the tenses of the latin subjunctive, and at September I'm going to learn the French ones. So, I can say I know the subjunctive in three languages.

It isn't as difficult as it seems...

 

 

Ginevra,

Tante grazie per la tua riposta cosi interessante!

[docoflove1974]

My specialty is Spanish, not Italian, even tho I grew up with speakers of the Italian dialect Abruzzese. Three and four-year olds in Spanish-speaking countries have little trouble using the subjunctive, at least in the simpler tenses, in sentences such as these, for example:

 

"Mama, quiero que me hagas una avena muy rica. (Mom, I want you to make me some really tasty oatmeal.)

"Si estuviera Papa, me habria regalado algo mejor." (If Dad were here, he would have given me a better gift.)

 

This doesn't shock me...my comment was that the transition from Latin to the modern Romance language was a big one. My 2nd semester (college) students learn the subjunctive relatively easy, too, if given the right set up

 

Besides, much of the present subjunctive contexts are used instead of direct commands, so that young children can and do use it is not surprising.

[Ginevra]

di niente, Ludovicus ^ ^

[Silentium]

However, I venture to say that Spanish will beat Italian when we look at which modern

Romance language is closest to Latin in syntax and grammar.

 

Comparing Syntax:

 

Latin: Maria videt canem. Videt canem Maria. Canem Maria videt. Maria canem videt. These all mean the same and are all

possible ways to say in Latin, "Maria sees the dog."

 

Spanish: Maria ve al perro. Al perro ve Maria. Ve Maria al perro. Al perro ve Maria. Maria al perro ve.

All possible ways of saying "Maria sees the dog."

 

Italian: Maria vide il cane.

I believe that this is the only possible way to say "Maria sees the dog" in Italian.

 

Not really. That