Fidel Castro (Capitalist Democracy vs Socialism)

[Moonlapse]

As usual, if one were well heeled, Athens was a 'democracy'.

 

In re censorship, what is the difference whether the government does it or the media does it?

I said they had the closest thing to a democracy. It was direct and some offices were even filled by lot.

 

As far as censorship goes, I'm positive that you know the difference. The fact that we are able to publicly discuss these things should verify what you already know.

 

I think perhaps Athens had the closest thing to democracy at one point in time. The U.S. is (or was) a Republic.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

The only problem I have with that sort of Athenian democracy is that the people can subject their leaders to exile for 10 years after they find out they dislike him, meaning that they downgrade him to almost a criminal level and take all his money and then just send him to the countryside for 10 friggin years as if he were nothing.

 

I don't think democracy(only to the Greeks, since they created it) even exists, rather a modified form of Republicanism. There are too many holes in the concept that can make it look more like an aristocracy, oligarchy, or even just a mob, you name it.

Sure, it had its vulnerabilities. Given the circumstances I think it was amazing. Is ostracism the worst aspect that you can acknowledge? Geez, I wish we had ostracism here in the U.S.... Talk about a real check and balance, politicians at the mercy of the people? Sign me up! The subjection of a politician is nothing compared to the subjection of a whole populace.

[Moonlapse]

The infant mortality rate (estimated) for Cuba in 2006 is 6.22 per 1,000 live births.

For the USA, the rate (estimated) for the same year is 6.43.

 

For the link:

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2091rank.html

 

The World Health Organization recommends, for statistical purposes, that births under 1000 grams not be included. In the United States, due to multiple births caused by widespread use of fertility drugs, low birth weights are more prevalent. In the United States, due to advancement in medical technology, babies under 1000 grams are often given intensive care even though the survival rate for these births is low. Why does this matter? Because those deaths are included in the staticical data for the U.S. Many other countries automatically consider extremely low birth weight births to be an automatic loss and are not recommended by the WHO for inclusion in statistics.

[Gaius Octavius]

Threads do and should drift; for this implied criticism, I am at fault and do apologize to all.

 

Now, I have always been a proponent of argument by anecdote and exception. As we all know, the likes of Dickens wrote twaddle. How anyone could question the methodology of the sundry censuses conducted in Great Britain is now beyond me. Take Ireland for example. We know that females were a part of these censuses. The Great Unwashed of eastern and indeed northern Europe, at that time in their liberal democracies, had a literacy rate of nearly 100%. That is why they didn't flee in great droves to the Americas where the steets were paved with gold.

 

We all know that democracy and alleged capitalism go hand in hand, the which is proven by the fact that none ever bought a seat in the British Parliament. Or that lords never instructed their free serfs as to how to vote properly. That the likes of Ford never inspected the hovels of their workers (in company towns), to ascertain that they lived, in their poverty, accoding to the the owners' Protestant moral precepts. That Jerry Meander was a fiction. That women were allowed the franchise in the 'Cradle of Democracy' and indeed throughout the western capitalistic democracies.

 

This libel with regard to free speech is disproven by the current warrantless searches and secret courts in MY COUNTRY. An earlier scribbler on this Forum maintained that freedom of speech was for all and not merely for those who belched the party line. This is proven by the fact that the traitors who recently published certain facts that they were fed by the 'good people' never had to spend a day in the slammer for not ratting on the rats.

 

It is a proven fact that all in the U.S. were literate in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It has also been proven that race, religion, ethnicity and money never reared their beautiful heads when it came to voting and opportunity. The Negro Leagues were a fiction. Catholics were always admired. A dead Italian was never put up for show and tell in South Carolina. Money never was a part of free speech. Union members were never machine gunned by government in such places as St. Louis. Or that government never, but never, raised its hand in favor of employers. The internment of the Japanese citizenry, along with a few Germans and Italians during WWII is a fiction. President Wilson was the Champion, without peer, for the civil rights of those Catholics and Orthodox vomits of Europe. That the American Prohibition amendment was not directed at this wine swilling rabble. I shan't mention segregation and its benefits as this is merely a great Liberal calumny on the nation.

 

Back to Cuba. Once again, I must apologize for my ignorance. It is a well known and proven fact that the free citizens of that isle, ante Castro, lolled on the beaches with Perfect Patented Pertimaxus'; frequented the gambling dens and bordellos; earned great fortunes compliments of their avuncular employers; their approved dictators had the average joker's benefit in mind at all turns.

 

This may be a first for the Forum. I have been convinced of my error by extensive factual evidence and logical, error free, argumentation. Undecieved in my false opinion with regard to logic, argument and alleged democracy. The unfounded propagandistic prattle of egg heads is now cleansed from my soul.

 

Please grant me pardon, absolution and remission for the former abhorent and erroneous misconceptions and slanders contained in my earlier ignorant skimble-scamble. I will do penance at the Altar of the god of Bull Cackle.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Moonlapse]

Do you think that I disagree with most of what you just said?

[Primus Pilus]

Allow me simply to suggest that despite restrictions on leaving Cuba, I don't believe there is any reason for those of you who are so inclined, not to emigrate to Cuba.

[Gaius Octavius]

Do you think that I disagree with most of what you just said?

 

I refuse to insult you by getting between your ears. The important thing here is what do you disagree with?

[Moonlapse]

If you want to praise a successful quasi-socialist state, check out Libya. No, I'm not being sarcastic.

 

Do you think that I disagree with most of what you just said?

 

I refuse to insult you by getting between your ears. The important thing here is what do you disagree with?

What do I disagree with? Heavy handed government, be it in the United States, Cuba, wherever. The 'capitalism' in the United States is anything but true capitalism. The 'democracy' in the United States is anything but true democracy. The liberty... is anything but true liberty. Regardless of that, this is my home and I appreciate the fact that there is still a chance for bloodless change.

[Gaius Octavius]

Allow me simply to suggest that despite restrictions on leaving Cuba, I don't believe there is any reason for those of you who are so inclined, not to emigrate to Cuba.

 

Ah!, yes " If you don't love it (in accordance with the 'super patriots', 'good people' and scoundrels), leave it." Yes, yes, I am now a devotee of that example of freedom of speech and liberty. One might just as judiciously hold that those in favor of that line, commence another Bay of Pigs (no pun intended) debacle - with their dumpers on the line and not sit back safely on their feculators.

 

 

 

If you want to praise a successful quasi-socialist state, check out Libya. No, I'm not being sarcastic.

 

Do you think that I disagree with most of what you just said?

 

I refuse to insult you by getting between your ears. The important thing here is what do you disagree with?

What do I disagree with? Heavy handed government, be it in the United States, Cuba, wherever. The 'capitalism' in the United States is anything but true capitalism. The 'democracy' in the United States is anything but true democracy. The liberty... is anything but true liberty. Regardless of that, this is my home and I appreciate the fact that there is still a chance for bloodless change.

Beshrew you, Moonlapse! Why do you force Gaius to agree with your last post? Not fair! What will some now think of Gaius? Has C. betrayed the cause he has just become an adherent of?

Surely, sir, you do not imply that C. is a sarcastic scoundrel? I am a Senator!

Edited August 7, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Primus Pilus]

Allow me simply to suggest that despite restrictions on leaving Cuba, I don't believe there is any reason for those of you who are so inclined, not to emigrate to Cuba.

 

Ah!, yes " If you don't love it (in accordance with the 'super patriots', 'good people' and scoundrels), leave it." Yes, yes, I am now a devotee of that example of freedom of speech and liberty. One might just as judiciously hold that those in favor of that line, commence another Bay of Pigs (no pun intended) debacle - with their dumpers on the line and not sit back safely on their feculators.

 

Do not put words in my mouth. I made no such inference. I simply say, if someone loves Castro and the socialist experience, you are free to go there. I don't personally care if you in particular love or hate your country.

[Gaius Octavius]

Allow me simply to suggest that despite restrictions on leaving Cuba, I don't believe there is any reason for those of you who are so inclined, not to emigrate to Cuba.

 

Ah!, yes " If you don't love it (in accordance with the 'super patriots', 'good people' and scoundrels), leave it." Yes, yes, I am now a devotee of that example of freedom of speech and liberty. One might just as judiciously hold that those in favor of that line, commence another Bay of Pigs (no pun intended) debacle - with their dumpers on the line and not sit back safely on their feculators.

 

Do not put words in my mouth. I made no such inference. I simply say, if someone loves Castro and the socialist experience, you are free to do so. I don't personally care if you in particular love or hate your country.

You may have noticed that I try very hard not to make ad hominem comments, unless in jest with those I am close to. I referred to your words, which you printed, and not to you. I do really have great respect for you, in particular, and every other member of this magnificent Forum. There is absolutely no sarcasm here.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Primus Pilus]

You may have noticed that I try very hard not to make ad hominem comments, unless in jest with those I am close to. I referred to your words, which you printed, and not to you. I do really have great respect for you, in particular, and every other member of this magnificent Forum. There is absolutely no sarcasm here.

 

Egads man, where is the generally vociferous Gaius we have come to appreciate? Did I stifle your routinely robust vocabularly with the unintended harshness in my tone? There can be no excuse for such a development.

 

PS. (semi on, but mostly off topic) Not being a cigar smoker, are Cuban cigars really all that good or does the embargo simply make them more desirable from a status point of view.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

I am a Senator!

 

Actually you are a Tribunus Laticlavius. Why is everyone calling Cuba a socialist country? It is very far from that! I call it fascism, the CIA factbook calls it communism. The Cuban regime is a little too harsh to be considered socialist... and it is a joke that it is still called the republic of Cuba...

Edited August 7, 2006 by Antiochus of Seleucia

[Gaius Octavius]

As far as Libya is concerned, I have always admired the tent dwelling master of that desert outpost of glory. Why, I have always wanted to wrap a rag around my head and visit the author of the jolly Green Book and pay homage to the that author of mayhem and the innocent defiler of Italian war graves. qadaffy is my hero.

I commend him to all as an examplar.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What? I am a what now? Will some good person please translate, as my trust and admiration for the Legatii and Moderators may be unfounded. I refer, of course to 'Tribunus Whatever'. Mayhaps it is an unneeded curse on my humble sarcastic person. Do I also get to keep my exalted status as A Roman Senator?

 

Edited August 7, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Gaius Octavius]

You may have noticed that I try very hard not to make ad hominem comments, unless in jest with those I am close to. I referred to your words, which you printed, and not to you. I do really have great respect for you, in particular, and every other member of this magnificent Forum. There is absolutely no sarcasm here.

 

Egads man, where is the generally vociferous Gaius we have come to appreciate? Did I stifle your routinely robust vocabularly with the unintended harshness in my tone? There can be no excuse for such a development.

 

PS. (semi on, but mostly off topic) Not being a cigar smoker, are Cuban cigars really all that good or does the embargo simply make them more desirable from a status point of view.

 

Gadzooks my Leader, I must tender my exalted apologies for my extensive wandering hubris. As for cigars, see to the Herculean hawker of herbs, His Grace of Brigantia, :notworthy: and the lately here abouts much maligned authoratative author of Homeric criticism; the possibly soon to be created Eyetalian, Dr. A. Dalby. :notworthy:

 

 

I am a Senator!

 

Actually you are a Tribunus Laticlavius. Why is everyone calling Cuba a socialist country? It is very far from that! I call it fascism, the CIA factbook calls it communism. The Cuban regime is a little too harsh to be considered socialist... and it is a joke that it is still called the republic of Cuba...

So, now it has come to this: I don't know where I am nor who I am! Better get to the quacks quick before Ursus puts in his meddling moderating influence.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Virgil61]

Threads do and should drift; for this implied criticism, I am at fault and do apologize to all.

...

It is a proven fact that all in the U.S. were literate in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It has also been proven that race, religion, ethnicity and money never reared their beautiful heads when it came to voting and opportunity. The Negro Leagues were a fiction. Catholics were always admired. A dead Italian was never put up for show and tell in South Carolina. Money never was a part of free speech. Union members were never machine gunned by government in such places as St. Louis. Or that government never, but never, raised its hand in favor of employers. The internment of the Japanese citizenry, along with a few Germans and Italians during WWII is a fiction. President Wilson was the Champion, without peer, for the civil rights of those Catholics and Orthodox vomits of Europe. That the American Prohibition amendment was not directed at this wine swilling rabble. I shan't mention segregation and its benefits as this is merely a great Liberal calumny on the nation

 

Past sins without mentioning cures like the Civil Rights Act, the 14th Amendment, et al--the current 4th ammendment issues on searches excepted--function as your rationale for the justification of a dictatorship ? I eagerly await your essay defending Stalin's liquidation of a few million Ukranians in the early 30's because there were Jim Crow laws in the US and, after all, he did increase literacy and made health care available to all.

 

Back to Cuba. Once again, I must apologize for my ignorance. It is a well known and proven fact that the free citizens of that isle, ante Castro, lolled on the beaches with Perfect Patented Pertimaxus'; frequented the gambling dens and bordellos; earned great fortunes compliments of their avuncular employers; their approved dictators had the average joker's benefit in mind at all turns.

...

 

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. So Castro is better than Batista and at least he's made the 'trains run on time'. Sounds like a wife arguing her new husband is a treasure because he only 'slaps her around a little' while the old one beat her constantly. Previously Cubans lived in hovels and homes, many were illiterate and denied health care. Now everyone is literate, gets minimal health care and live in the same friggin' hovels--they're all miserable together! Progress I suppose. Pity about those political prisoners and the million plus refugees fleeing.