Rome And Usa.

[Gaius Octavius]

MPC just look around you jobs are getting outsourced but prices are still rising on everything.

But this just isn't true. Labor-intensive products (e.g., health services) are rising in prices, whereas capital-intensive products (e.g., laptops) are falling. [Are the menial workers in the health care system getting their pagan share?]

 

 

 

I'm for business's making money, but when they say in order for them to compete American workers can no longer expect benefits, can no longer expect contract guarantees, no longer expect safe working conditions,no longer to be able to earn a living wage, then something is very wrong somewhere. Are we going to reach a point in our history when workers who demand to be treated fairly are shot and murdered by hiring thugs bought by companies, thats what happened in the 1930's.

Now you're engaging in hyperbole. Let's look at what's happening from the customer perspective, since that's where the money comes from. Realistically, products from Delphi have been less valuable to customers for some time. Personally, I've ripped out the stereo from every American car I've owned because it was so substandard (never had to for a Japanese car, btw). Recently, when the iPod swept the market, Delphi missed an opportunity to add an auxiliary jack (and their mp3 stereo still doesn't have one), whereas auto manufacturers who use other component suppliers do. (As I recall, BMW was first to market on this, quickly followed by Volkswagen et al). Again, Delphi workers can't get guarantees from their customer (Delphi) because Delphi itself can't get guarantees from their customers (what's left of them).

 

Living near Detroit (and Mrs Cato growing up in Sterling Heights), and with several family members employed by GM, Delphi, and Ford, I'm plenty familiar with the sob story of American auto manufacturing, and frankly my sympathy only goes so far. Union greed, lousy corporate leadership, and government meddling destroyed a great American industry.

 

[May not both views be correct at the same time?]

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but if a company is doing well and have high prices, don't they raise wages from the surplus cash [greater profits] they are recieving to boost buying power?

No--they might raise wages to get more talent so they can stay competitive.

 

 

 

There is a good deal of veiled "worker entitlement" that I'm reading here It's this sort of ethic (along with poor executive leadership in the auto industry and state government) that is punishing the region where I live. I don't blame the UAW for getting every dollar they can for their members, but keep in mind that when it hits the fan, most people outside the region aren't going to cry in their soup for those who have contributed to the demise of their own industry. Entitlement is not what the founding members of the UAW (and other unions) originally fought for. Somewhere along the line, the notion of protecting good hard working people was corrupted and lost.

 

When American industry stopped manufacturing consumer electronics, did anyone notice other than the people who worked in those factories? Nope. Few will notice when the same thing happens to the auto industry (except for those of us in Detroit). Mind you, I don't believe the American auto industry is dying, but going through a painful and necessary evolution.

 

This, in three words is called 'exceptionally bad management'.

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

Remember that the speed reader, the then Sen. Dole, could read the 8,000 pages of NAFTA over a weekend and the 28-30 thousand pages of WTO in two weeks, but not Mrs. Clinton's 1,400 page health care reform in a month of Sundays.

 

I remeber the republicans roasting Clinton at the time saying he wanted to send all our jobs to mexico, but they never mentioned the fact it was started by Gorge Bush senior's administration and fast tracked by Bush senior also. Now during this current administraion about a half dozen free-trade agreements have been signed with countries, including that farce CAFTA which also included a 217-215 vote in the House of Repesentavies, in which tom delay, who at the time was under indictment, held the floor vote open long after the schedule vote time was over and CAFTA was voted against. But being the honest gentleman he is tom delay kept the floor open, despite that being against House rules and threatened other republicans who voted against CAFTA until he finally bullied enough republicans to vote for it. It was truly one of the most sorriest and disgusting moments in the history of the House of Representatives.

[Gaius Octavius]

If one takes a good look at de lay's face, it will be abundantly obvious that he must take the mercury cure.

 

[Moonlapse]

The fact is, other countries are catching up to the United States whether anyone likes it or not. Many people in those countries want to see improvement and have the drive to achieve it. Meanwhile, we have become complacent as a natural result of prosperity. Things will have to adjust. It's not just as simple as 'we need to keep jobs in the U.S. and paying our workers more while expecting our standard of living to be affordable.'

 

There's no welfare queen on earth as fat and lazy as ADM.

Ever wonder why ethanol is touted as the alternative fuel par excellence?

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

The fact is, other countries are catching up to the United States whether anyone likes it or not. Many people in those countries want to see improvement and have the drive to achieve it. Meanwhile, we have become complacent as a natural result of prosperity. Things will have to adjust. It's not just as simple as 'we need to keep jobs in the U.S. and paying our workers more while expecting our standard of living to be affordable.'

 

Don't Americans work more hours and receive less vacations than almost all other industrial nations. Also someone mentioned ealier in this thread that if a country cannot even have running water or enough food for its population how can they be catching up economically. China would be the perfect example of this, were with all the investment and "improvements" in China, the Communist party rules that country less for the protection of the ideals of Marx and Mao Zedong and more for the protection of the ruling elites in the party while the rest of the population lives in poverty. The same thing could be said for alot of these countries were American jobs get outsourced to.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

The fact is, other countries are catching up to the United States whether anyone likes it or not. Many people in those countries want to see improvement and have the drive to achieve it. Meanwhile, we have become complacent as a natural result of prosperity. Things will have to adjust. It's not just as simple as 'we need to keep jobs in the U.S. and paying our workers more while expecting our standard of living to be affordable.'

 

Don't Americans work more hours and receive less vacations than almost all other industrial nations. Also someone mentioned ealier in this thread that if a country cannot even have running water or enough food for its population how can they be catching up economically. China would be the perfect example of this, were with all the investment and "improvements" in China, the Communist party rules that country less for the protection of the ideals of Marx and Mao Zedong and more for the protection of the ruling elites in the party while the rest of the population lives in poverty. The same thing could be said for alot of these countries were American jobs get outsourced to.

 

Well yes Americans work more hours/live to work, but that concept is a pretty old one that is used to differentiate Europe and America really.

As for China, yes, they are getting stronger militarily and economically. However, they are just screwing themselves over with their excessive spending on their military and massive material consumption when they have no such funds[?] for real social reform like healthcare for a huge aging population. I mean if you say America has got it bad when it comes to a comprehensive healthcare system, we're lucky as hell to even have such an institution or close enough.

Eventually, the Chinese will face the problems we face with a capitolist society or even worse.

[Moonlapse]

Don't Americans work more hours and receive less vacations than almost all other industrial nations.

You're equating 'working more' to 'working better for a given cost' or 'working as well for less cost'.

 

Also someone mentioned ealier in this thread that if a country cannot even have running water or enough food for its population how can they be catching up economically. China would be the perfect example of this, were with all the investment and "improvements" in China, the Communist party rules that country less for the protection of the ideals of Marx and Mao Zedong and more for the protection of the ruling elites in the party while the rest of the population lives in poverty. The same thing could be said for alot of these countries were American jobs get outsourced to.

China is only one country in East Asia. There are very rich areas of China and very poor areas, I don't see how that means that they are not catching up. I suppose GM's production activity there is a step backwards for them? Yes, they have pitfalls ahead of them, but there is a lot of economic momentum in that part of the globe, regardless of ideology or moral stances on the subject.

[Virgil61]

The fact is, other countries are catching up to the United States whether anyone likes it or not. Many people in those countries want to see improvement and have the drive to achieve it. Meanwhile, we have become complacent as a natural result of prosperity. Things will have to adjust. It's not just as simple as 'we need to keep jobs in the U.S. and paying our workers more while expecting our standard of living to be affordable.'

 

Don't Americans work more hours and receive less vacations than almost all other industrial nations.

 

One average I believe American workers work three hours more a week than other G8 nations, which in the aggregate of millions of workers adds up. But there's more to it than that. American workers still have the highest productivity rate of the major industrial powers, in other words in one hour of work they produce something like .3% more than other G8 workers which again adds up in the aggregate in a huge economy like the U.S.'s.

 

Also someone mentioned ealier in this thread that if a country cannot even have running water or enough food for its population how can they be catching up economically. China would be the perfect example of this, were with all the investment and "improvements" in China, the Communist party rules that country less for the protection of the ideals of Marx and Mao Zedong and more for the protection of the ruling elites in the party while the rest of the population lives in poverty. The same thing could be said for alot of these countries were American jobs get outsourced to.

 

The Chinese have a lot of issues ahead of them. The urban/rural divide is pretty vast if the literature is to be believed and there are major social and infrastructure problems that need to be focused on. They are also facing a demographic crunch in the next 20 years. Because of their 'one child' policy birth rates fell. Now that generation is heading towards retirement and there are fewer workers left to replace or support them. This has major economic and social consequences. I think it was Deutsche Bank that recently did a study high-lighting the fact that if they don't address this then China's long-term growth may slow.

 

The fact is, other countries are catching up to the United States whether anyone likes it or not. Many people in those countries want to see improvement and have the drive to achieve it. Meanwhile, we have become complacent as a natural result of prosperity. Things will have to adjust. It's not just as simple as 'we need to keep jobs in the U.S. and paying our workers more while expecting our standard of living to be affordable.

 

I'm not so sure we've become complacent. The US economy has outperformed the major EU powers and Japan on average in the last twenty years. GNP per capita and real wages have increased faster than theirs and a steady population growth--higher than other first world countries--guarantees a steady labor pool and consumer base. That doesn't mean there aren't problems to be addressed, but other countries would kill to trade their 'issues' for ours.

 

I'm more concerned about the bottom 20% of the population. I'm not by nature anti-immigrant or anti-Mexican but the vast influx of illegal aliens is pushing wages at the lower end of the spectrum down artificially. Working people need to make a living wage and benefit from economic growth via those wages.

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

China is only one country in East Asia. There are very rich areas of China and very poor areas, I don't see how that means that they are not catching up. I suppose GM's production activity there is a step backwards for them? Yes, they have pitfalls ahead of them, but there is a lot of economic momentum in that part of the globe, regardless of ideology or moral stances on the subject.

 

First off China is not just "one" country in south asia, it is THE country of all Asia. The biggest hypocrisy is accusing China of massive human rights violations, which it is guilty of, and the US Government telling the world that we are the promoters of democracy in the world while China squashes any internal dissent, but on the other hand allowing American companies to do as much bussiness with China as possible. But the argument goes if they open up economically then they will open up socially. Well then why does China use Google to find blogs of Chinese dissenters. The internet service that the Chinese have are as censored as anything else over there, thats what American business has brought to China, new ways to crack down on dissenters. Ideology and moral issues are the heart of the matter, you can't have it both ways, China wants economic freedom but no personal liberties, and American companies want a place that they can exploit and were dissent is not existent. You think a chinese dissident rotting in a jail cell for having a blog that is critical of the Chinese government is enjoying the joys of American investment. I'm sure if GM ever has any trouble with its workers they just call someone in the Chinese goverment, and they will never hear from those troublemaking workers again, after all there are only a billion more to replace them. Thats a real big step forward china's making.

 

Here is an article on why there is such a negative view of US companies.

 

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16333983.htm

[Moonlapse]

I'm not so sure we've become complacent.

It's a very broad generalization, but this is just how I feel based on my relationships with several foreigners, ranging from Bosnia to the Philippines. The one idea they all had in common was that we (mostly) take what we have for granted. Our country is the most capable of protecting its interests. I think this has a far greater role in these matters than is acknowledged.

 

First off China is not just "one" country in south asia, it is THE country of all Asia.

I disagree.

 

As much as I like to argue, I'm sure most of you know my opinions by now. I really should turn my attention to other things.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Here is an article on why there is such a negative view of US companies.

 

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16333983.htm

 

It is sad. It really is. America has had its share of union problems, albiet an extremely lesser degree. Yet, I find it interesting of how critical many foreigners are of us, about their problems. All 4,000 of those murders are most definitely our fault, and... you get the point. I'll spare everyone the rant. I'm going to bed.

 

So much for comparing Rome to the United States...

[Virgil61]

I'm not so sure we've become complacent.

It's a very broad generalization, but this is just how I feel based on my relationships with several foreigners, ranging from Bosnia to the Philippines. The one idea they all had in common was that we (mostly) take what we have for granted. Our country is the most capable of protecting its interests. I think this has a far greater role in these matters than is acknowledged.

 

Yeah I know the type, I work with and am related to a few. They think all Americans should be as thankful as crack addicts who've just gotten a long needed fix. Well that's fine, the truth is while some individuals from Bosnia or the Philippines aren't complacent, when you go to their countries (I've been to Bosnia) everyone 'works' like they've taken a few valium and timeliness is a flexible commodity--and that's being very kind.

 

I remember one project at a US Embassy building in Kiev, Ukraine that was finally finished when US contractors came in because the native workers lacked any sense of urgency about the project and it wallowed for weeks.

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

QUOTE

First off China is not just "one" country in south asia, it is THE country of all Asia.

I disagree.

 

As much as I like to argue, I'm sure most of you know my opinions by now. smile.gif I really should turn my attention to other things.

 

Well here is the thing if China is not the main country in Asian who is? Thailand, Burma, laos, North Korea, Malasysia who.

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

It is sad. It really is. America has had its share of union problems, albiet an extremely lesser degree. Yet, I find it interesting of how critical many foreigners are of us, about their problems. All 4,000 of those murders are most definitely our fault, and... you get the point. I'll spare everyone the rant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm going to bed.

 

Did you really read the ariticle because those guys who went on the bus actually were looking for the union leaders. The ariticle doesn't say that 4,000 union murders were the US fault. You know maybe the US shouldn't be supporting countries like Saudia Arabia and China two of the BIGGEST human right violators and non-democratic countries in the world, but hey just because the government says we should export democracy and American values doesn't mean we will. Money over values any day.

[Ursus]

Am I the only one that is apathetic to American hegemony?

 

I look at the mindless postmodern culture America is exporting to the world and I feel cold. Numb. Alienated. Bored. Unimpressed. Uninspired. Underwhelmed. If this an empire, then they don't make empires like they used to. The Romans might appreciate our military superiority, but I think they would laugh at our alleged culture.

 

But then I look at the so-called alternatives that are competing with American influence. Sino-fascism. Islamo-fascism. No thanks. I prefer boredom and alienation to totalitarianism and theocracy. I am not the most patriotic citizen but I'll take it over that crap.

 

And with all due respect to our European friends, I find their namby-pamby post-Colonial bureaucratic self-loathing rather uninspiring as well.

 

Maybe I just don't belong in this age. I don't know. It seems like the soul has gone out of the human race, and all our cultures are empty artifices.