Rome And Usa.

[Gaius Octavius]

 

CIA? I don't know where you get your hoo-hah from, but that psychic lady on TLC said the world will on March 21, 2014, due to a large meteor.

 

Are your fingers out-running your alleged brain or have you not been born yet?

 

 

Read again.

 

:

 

You are a hound of the first water! When you edited your post and quoted, you should have also changed the times and dates. You should have known that I would check. That blunder entitles you to serve out your days in the employ of prez chinney.

 

Edited February 8, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Gaius Octavius]

[quote name='Julia C

[Gaius Octavius]

Re: Proposed meeting of UNRV in NYC. Just what we need! The Belly Dancer :wub: and the Tattle Tale :wub:

together. To complete things, all that is needed is L_W :wub: and my nemesis, DoL :wub: T.T., if by NYC, you mean Manhattan, I'll have you know that I wouldn't pass water on it. B.D., beware of Ursus. This may be a cunning plan of his to satisfy his concupiscent appetites - with you!

 

Edited February 8, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Julia C]

Are you contradicting or re-enforcing something I said?

 

It is an example of the US removing European colonists from North America immediately after the Civil War.

 

If you are talking about income taxes, no one, but no one in America pays that much in taxes, not even if your accountant is the village idiot.

 

Actually, the top income brackets do if they don't have enough itemized deductions. This includes state income taxes as well.

 

You are confusing two elements here. The head of an oil company, of which I am a shareholder of, received a $400 million bonus plus his salary and all he can steal in options. I got the bird.

 

So uncommon behavior warrants the criticism of an entire group of individuals? Corporate CEOs number in the thousands, and they must be corrupt and guilty of hating the poor because some executives arrange for themselves to get ludicrous bonuses?

 

Really? Then how do you account for the Great Depression and all the Panics prior to it?

 

I was unaware, Gaius Octavius, that the Great Depression was a socialist revolution. I did not know that it was caused by the workers rising up against the evil bougeoisie.

 

All this time I thought it was a crisis of public credit following a market collapse that led to a run on the banks. Gee, was I mistaken.

 

All those panics, too! Why, the bi-metallism crisis must have had nothing to do with the currency. The crisis of the late 1830s must've had nothing to do with the closing of the Bank of the United States, because it was really the socialists that did it.

 

Please hone up on economic statistics.

 

Do feel free to enlighten me. I would enjoy your demonstration that a soaring GDP is indicative of a superpower. Surely you'd mention how high China's productivity is, yes?

 

It's really too bad that it's not sustainable, and that there's no solid consumer basis behind the growth. But that's quite all right for the armchair economists and media loudmouths, because there's a lot of money being made. Why does it matter that the majority of the country grows rice and the majority of the populace lives in poverty when they are making trillions in goods and services!

 

I would like a better justification than a statistic, thank you.

 

The yuan is over valued, not the economy. As an aside, did you ever hear of the Breton Woods Agreement?

 

The yuan was undervalued, not overvalued. This created a balance of trade heavily favorable to the Chinese in a period where foreign investment was at its peak. Consequently, the tremendous flow of capital had sent the Chinese economy to skyrocketing--especially when it coincided with some relaxations on business by the communist r

[Nephele]

Re: Proposed meeting of UNRV in NYC. Just what we need! The Belly Dancer :wub: and the Tattle Tale :wub:

together. To complete things, all that is needed is L_W :wub: and my nemesis, DoL :wub: T.T., if by NYC, you mean Manhattan, I'll have you know that I wouldn't pass water on it. B.D., beware of Ursus. This may be a cunning plan of his to satisfy his concupiscent appetites - with you!

 

 

 

The belly dancer is also a sorceress (see blog). And, yes, by NYC I mean Manhattan, silly. But Brooklyn has its merits, too. :wub:

 

-- Nephele

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

These corporate executives that most Americans seem to have this unreasonable vitriol against are the same people that make America great. This is a consumer economy, and more money in the hands of businesses means more capital for investment--which means that there can be more jobs. Tax businesses or have the government play Robin Hood, and you'll be out of a job. Then who will you hate?

 

Wow do you actually believe that. 3 million jobs have been lost in this country during Mr. Business friendly George W's Administration. I have a sister who has been working at Delphi for over 20 years as a electrician now they are forcing her to retire early so she they can pay her less benefits and they are outsourcing all their jobs!! You mentioned you have been to india and china, well how about looking at USA, were workers that have worked jobs for 10, 15 or 20 years are asked to have their pay cut in half or they forced to retire, while the ceo's don't think twice, or once for that matter, about cutting their salaries, or benefits. This "tax us and regulate us and Americans will lose their jobs" is nothing but fear mongering by business. You can give businesses every perk in the world and they will still outsource are jobs. Business's have one job and that is to make money, and if they don't they just have the federal goverment bail them out at the American tax dollar expense. Why was it the formerly Republican Congress changed the law so that it would be harder for individual Americans to declare bankruptcy, but nothing was said about corporate bankruptcy, you think they did that for the benefit average Americans!!!!

 

Oh on a side note thanks to all this wonderful investment by businesses the average Americans buying rate is at the lowest it has been in 50 years.

[M. Porcius Cato]

You can give businesses every perk in the world and they will still outsource are jobs.

Whose jobs? Nobody owns his job; jobs are provided by customer demand. If Starbucks starts to make crappy coffee or if a new coffee shop opens up with better coffee, customers "outsource" their business to a new coffee shop, and Starbucks' employees lose their source of income. Ditto for GM, Ford, and--though I'm sorry for your sister--Delphi too. (FWIW, my father-in-law was in a similar situation at Delphi, and I know the situation is infuriating.)

 

The fact is that many American businesses--like the Starbucks situation in my example--aren't doing as good of a job meeting worldwide consumer demand as foreign businesses are. The same is true of American workers, too--they cost too much and provide too little. No set of "perks" can change this set of fundamentals, only increasing worker productivity can do it, which takes technology, which takes math and science knowledge, which is sorely lacking among American students, teachers, the whole American education establishment, and the wider culture that sees an American idol in William Hung but not William Gates. The question is whether it will take the loss of 1, 10, or 100 million jobs to have another Sputnik-type, "Oh S**t!"

 

Business's have one job and that is to make money, and if they don't they just have the federal goverment bail them out at the American tax dollar expense.

You're right about that--and I'd be all for ending welfare to failing businesses (big, small, industrial, agricultural, educational, whatever). There's no welfare queen on earth as fat and lazy as ADM.

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

The fact is that many American businesses--like the Starbucks situation in my example--aren't doing as good of a job meeting worldwide consumer demand as foreign businesses are. The same is true of American workers, too--they cost too much and provide too little. No set of "perks" can change this set of fundamentals, only increasing worker productivity can do it, which takes technology, which takes math and science knowledge, which is sorely lacking among American students, teachers, the whole American education establishment, and the wider culture that sees an American idol in William Hung but not William Gates. The question is whether it will take the loss of 1, 10, or 100 million jobs to have another Sputnik-type, "Oh S**t!"

 

MPC- It has nothing to do with worker productivity. It has everything to do with instead of paying a skilled American worker their worth, these companies go to South America or asia, and pay those people not even half of what would be minimum wage in this country. To top it off these countries probaly have lax labor laws and no unions, and a influx of people who are so desperate for work they will work any dangerous or little paying job. For these companies to this to the American worker is a spit and slap in the face, then these very same companies go run to the government when the going goes bad for them them. We live in the country with the greastest living standard in the world and to have these corporate robbers sit their and cut people who's lives depend on the benefits and wages they earned with a life time of work and then not only not cut their own pay but vote themselves an increase before they announce what they are doing to their workers should be criminal. You know it brings to something i was watching on tv, i can't rember what it was called, they were interviewing some business man before the Iraq War about the prospects of going to war, and he as all for it just because potential billions could be made there. They then asked him about the soldiers and civilians that would die also, and he said "well it may be bad for everyone else but its good for us." That should be the motto of coporate America.

[M. Porcius Cato]

[MPC- It has nothing to do with worker productivity. It has everything to do with instead of paying a skilled American worker their worth, these companies go to South America or asia, and pay those people not even half of what would be minimum wage in this country.

 

What determines the monetary value of labor? Supply and demand. Just as American workers are happy to buy Asian products for less, American businesses are happy to buy Asian labor for less. Nothing justifies a double standard here--one for consumers and one for producers. On the contrary, by restricting the ability of American businesses to employ cheap foreign labor, one increases prices of the goods available in the American marketplace, thereby reducing the value of American wages. There's no more sense in raging against the law of supply and demand than in raging against the law of gravity.

[Gaius Octavius]

After the peasants lose their jobs and rampant inflation drives them into penury, who will be left to buy the Chinese junk?

[Septimus Flavius Galarius]

MPC just look around you jobs are getting outsourced but prices are still rising on everything. For what the companies are paying their workers the products they sell back here should be a fraction of what they really cost. Its not about supply and demand, its about money plain and simple. Its about the few on top taken advantage of the many at the bottom. I used the example of Congress changing the banrupcy laws so that it is nearly impossible for average Americans to declare bancrupcy any any circumstances, but did Congress do the same for corporate America, no they did not because these companies have the money to get these kind of laws passed and average Americans don't. To say it is the American workers fault that the companies are outsourcing thier jobs because they earn too much or that that they get too many benefits, while the one's at top make no effort themselves to curb any of their excesses is a insult. If these companies want to go to other countries them let them, take the whole company and when they start having trouble let the goverment of the country they are in bail them out. Let these companies pay the same tariffs that other foreign companies have to pay, and the only reason they have these tariffs is so they can't compete with the American companies, just look at what the Canadian lumber companies have to go through. I'm for business's making money, but when they say in order for them to compete American workers can no longer expect benefits, can no longer expect contract guarantees, no longer expect safe working conditions,no longer to be able to earn a living wage, then something is very wrong somewhere. Are we going to reach a point in our history when workers who demand to be treated fairly are shot and murdered by hiring thugs bought by companies, thats what happened in the 1930's. Because it seems were headed down that road.

 

PS- I'm not some radical, but someone who has personally seen what corporate "supply and demand" does to real people, and thats the real problem these companies only see dollars and cents and nothing else.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

On the contrary, by restricting the ability of American businesses to employ cheap foreign labor, one increases prices of the goods available in the American marketplace, thereby reducing the value of American wages.

 

High prices and low wages was a dominant factor in starting the Great Depression. Correct me if I am wrong, but if a company is doing well and have high prices, don't they raise wages from the surplus cash they are recieving to boost buying power?

 

The same is true of American workers, too--they cost too much and provide too little.

 

MPC, what do you make of the quote, "Europeans work to live; Americans live to work." I have heard Europeams and Americans say that.

[M. Porcius Cato]

MPC just look around you jobs are getting outsourced but prices are still rising on everything.

But this just isn't true. Labor-intensive products (e.g., health services) are rising in prices, whereas capital-intensive products (e.g., laptops) are falling.

 

To say it is the American workers fault that the companies are outsourcing thier jobs because they earn too much or that that they get too many benefits, while the one's at top make no effort themselves to curb any of their excesses is a insult.

It's true that CEOs may be in danger of pricing their labor out of the market in the same way that (say) textile labor priced itself out of the market, but only time will tell.

 

I'm for business's making money, but when they say in order for them to compete American workers can no longer expect benefits, can no longer expect contract guarantees, no longer expect safe working conditions,no longer to be able to earn a living wage, then something is very wrong somewhere. Are we going to reach a point in our history when workers who demand to be treated fairly are shot and murdered by hiring thugs bought by companies, thats what happened in the 1930's.

Now you're engaging in hyperbole. Let's look at what's happening from the customer perspective, since that's where the money comes from. Realistically, products from Delphi have been less valuable to customers for some time. Personally, I've ripped out the stereo from every American car I've owned because it was so substandard (never had to for a Japanese car, btw). Recently, when the iPod swept the market, Delphi missed an opportunity to add an auxiliary jack (and their mp3 stereo still doesn't have one), whereas auto manufacturers who use other component suppliers do. (As I recall, BMW was first to market on this, quickly followed by Volkswagen et al). Again, Delphi workers can't get guarantees from their customer (Delphi) because Delphi itself can't get guarantees from their customers (what's left of them).

 

Living near Detroit (and Mrs Cato growing up in Sterling Heights), and with several family members employed by GM, Delphi, and Ford, I'm plenty familiar with the sob story of American auto manufacturing, and frankly my sympathy only goes so far. Union greed, lousy corporate leadership, and government meddling destroyed a great American industry.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but if a company is doing well and have high prices, don't they raise wages from the surplus cash they are recieving to boost buying power?

No--they might raise wages to get more talent so they can stay competitive.

 

MPC, what do you make of the quote, "Europeans work to live; Americans live to work." I have heard Europeams and Americans say that.

It's probably true. A poll of French youth was recently taken, where French teenagers were asked what job they wanted most. Something like 78% wanted a job in the civil service, as professional parasites in cushy jobs with little work and less productivity. To me, creative work is a joy, and I proudly live for that kind of work. If that's part of the American ethos, God bless the USA.

[Gaius Octavius]

Once upon a time, the great Nosy Parker, Henry Ford, had the wits to hold that if he didn't pay his workers a decent wage, who would buy his cars? (Think of the cost-profit-selling price continuum here.) Outsourcing is not trade - free or otherwise. Trade occurs when one nation's own production is traded for another's. When we made our own shoes, they lasted; now that we 'import' them, they fall apart at once. They are 'cheap' because they are cheap, and thus very expensive. When a nation uses its own land, labor, capital and management in a True Capitalist fashion, i.e., without constraints on labor, it then has real growth for the many. The USA had its greatest real growth during the period from the Revolution (without Capitalism allowed to workers and protectionism applied for producers) until the emergence of Reegonomics. From the 'top down' was really from the 'bottom up'. This was a Chicago School joke that Stockman admitted to, but bobble head's wife's astrologer was too dumb to understand.

 

One of the reasons for outsourcing is that it provides another profit center for a company, as it need not repatriate its profits and thus their being taxed as earned (as the average joker must). If the accounting of American companies is a fraud perpetrated by management, CPA's and scheisters, then Asiatic accounting is a felonious ethereal crock. The outsourced worker ant pays more, percentage wise, in income taxes than the average corporation does. I can't help but feel pity for that poor family (cited earlier) that pays 70% in all of its income taxes. That rate wouldn't come within a country mile of the total percent paid by a NYC resident earning millions, even if he filed Form 1040EZ in NYC. Perhaps they are adding up their percentages or are using a 1949 tax form [even then, the highest rate (95%?) would only be applied to the last marginal income. The total paid would be about 50%.].

 

NAFTA helps all three countries, right? Except for Mexico. Note the increase in the number of wetbacks working for poverty wages since NAFTA's inception. I can't help a little dig here. Remember that the speed reader, the then Sen. Dole, could read the 8,000 pages of NAFTA over a weekend and the 28-30 thousand pages of WTO in two weeks, but not Mrs. Clinton's 1,400 page health care reform in a month of Sundays.

[Primus Pilus]

There is a good deal of veiled "worker entitlement" that I'm reading here It's this sort of ethic (along with poor executive leadership in the auto industry and state government) that is punishing the region where I live. I don't blame the UAW for getting every dollar they can for their members, but keep in mind that when it hits the fan, most people outside the region aren't going to cry in their soup for those who have contributed to the demise of their own industry. Entitlement is not what the founding members of the UAW (and other unions) originally fought for. Somewhere along the line, the notion of protecting good hard working people was corrupted and lost.

 

When American industry stopped manufacturing consumer electronics, did anyone notice other than the people who worked in those factories? Nope. Few will notice when the same thing happens to the auto industry (except for those of us in Detroit). Mind you, I don't believe the American auto industry is dying, but going through a painful and necessary evolution.