Rome And Usa.

[Gaius Octavius]

At the end of the American Civil War, the U.S.A. had the largest standing army and navy in the world. It did not take Canada or Mexico or eject the European colonialists out of the Western Hemisphere. At the starts of WWI and WWII, the U.S.A. had an inconsiderable army. In the end, the USA's entry proved to be the turning points of the wars. (This is not to denigrate the valiant and victorious efforts of the Allies.) Admiral Yamamoto(?), at the time of Pearl Harbor, said that he feared that the Japanese had awakened a sleeping giant. They did - to their regret. Field Marshall Rommel said that so long as the US had a foothold in Africa, the Axis didn't stand a chance of winning WWII. Never underestimate the power of the American nation and its people.

 

The nations you mentioned, as presently constituted, could not conquer each other because in the end, after the A-bombing, one nation would have to occupy the other with foot soldiers.

 

As far as that Iraq idiocy is concerned, it was provoked, started and continues because of greedy and exceptionally stupid people and their lackeys.

 

Culturally, (for better or worse), the USA has more influence on other nations and peoples, than Rome had in its time. Looked at a TV recently? Used a computer? Had a Coke or Big Mac? Benefited from American outsourcing?

 

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As for you Tattle Tale :wub: , stay where you are. We don't need another 'bedroom events' Tell All. Who cares anyway? But eat your heart out - in Manchester!.

 

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

i cant see many other countries adopting (or be influenced in such way by) the american culture

 

Uhm...it's called Westernization and the majority of the world uses English in terms of the economy. Also consider the fact that though people may hate the US, but if given the chance, they would live there. Kinda odd, but that's my opinion.

 

I can assure you, Flavius, that here is one who would NOT!!!

 

Yes, that is because you have no need to or for whatever preference. However, let's say you asked a population of refugees or a third-world population. Obviously, the majority of them would prefer moving to the US because they know that conditions there are much better and most importantly, a better chance of survival. Generosity also happens to improve image too ya know.

[The Augusta]

i cant see many other countries adopting (or be influenced in such way by) the american culture

 

Uhm...it's called Westernization and the majority of the world uses English in terms of the economy. Also consider the fact that though people may hate the US, but if given the chance, they would live there. Kinda odd, but that's my opinion.

 

I can assure you, Flavius, that here is one who would NOT!!!

 

Yes, that is because you have no need to or for whatever preference. However, let's say you asked a population of refugees or a third-world population. Obviously, the majority of them would prefer moving to the US because they know that conditions there are much better and most importantly, a better chance of survival. Generosity also happens to improve image too ya know.

 

Ah - now I see... Point taken, Flavius. As for my own personal preference, I have to say I'm not exactly cock-a-hoop living in 'this sceptred isle' either! But as I say, I do take your point about our respective lands being a whole lot better than some that poor refugees come from. I suppose we can take our comforts for granted and have the luxury of griping.

 

 

As for you Tattle Tale :wub: , stay where you are. We don't need another 'bedroom events' Tell All. Who cares anyway? But eat your heart out - in Manchester!.

 

 

Just wait till you read the whole thing! Is this my new nickname, Gaius? Tattle Tale? I like it. But please do not rub my nose in the dirt of Manchester - I had seen you as a friend. No one really deserves to live in Manchester, you know - not even you, dear Gaius :wub:

[Gaius Octavius]

Just wait till you read the whole thing! Is this my new nickname, Gaius? Tattle Tale? I like it. But please do not rub my nose in the dirt of Manchester - I had seen you as a friend. No one really deserves to live in Manchester, you know - not even you, dear Gaius :wub:

 

Tattle Tale :wub: :

 

Manchester is off the menu. You are always welcome at my home in Corbridge . (See my gallery and/or blog for a picture thereof.) We are now, officially, famous friends. Oh, OK, as the Earl of Brookfordshiresexingham, you are welcome in the Heart of America. Take you to lunch at Fairway.

 

I am sure that when you finish your Tell All, and I read it, (full glass of rotgut in hand), I will need a priest of Iupiter to give me absolution and remission of all my sins. or

 

Edited February 2, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Traianus]

that though people may hate the US, but if given the chance, they would live there. Kinda odd, but that's my opinion.

 

ehehehe, I suppose you're talking seriously so now that you talk about this, the other day, watching the channel euronews, they made a poll whit a curious result: only about 1.5% of Europeans would like to live in US and the other 98.5% would never choose living there if they had the chance

I obviously would never change living here in the old world that living there(even I'd love make a trip to New York)

 

Obviously, the majority of them would prefer moving to the US because they know that conditions there are much better and most importantly, a better chance of survival. Generosity also happens to improve image too ya know.

 

of course they'd love move there or here, but that is because they don't know the hypocrite classicism that americans and europeans have and they realize that "the fabulous land of freedom and opportunities" is an absolute fiasco

Edited February 3, 2007 by Traianus

[Virgil61]

...Economically, the EU is surpassing, slower, the US...

 

This is untrue. The EU growth rate as a whole has been lower than that of the US for the last decade, dragged down by the sluggishness of the large German, French and Italian economies. It's for this reason that the Euro has been suspected of being far overvalued by some relative to the dollar.

[Northern Neil]

Uhm...it's called Westernization and the majority of the world uses English in terms of the economy. Also consider the fact that though people may hate the US, but if given the chance, they would live there. Kinda odd, but that's my opinion.

 

Again, I wouldn't like to either. Apart from anything else, I quite like living half a morning's drive from Hadrians wall, to the south of the English Lake District, so its not a put - down. I don't think as many people hate the US as Americans think; Some people hate the US, for some of the time. Unfortunately many in the US are unwilling to listen to the reasons, and construe it as 'hate' (or silence the voice) when people point these reasons out. Although largely ridiculed in the US, Michael Moore goes a long way to explain to puzzled Americans exactly why this is.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Northern Neil

[Gaius Octavius]

I really don't think that the vast majority of Americans 'hate' foreigners. When you hear about this 'hatred', it is mostly because of a bunch of dung for brains radio trash talkers who infect their equally feculated, dis-educated followings. It's a "See, I'm just like you. Let's rub coolies." syndrome.

 

No one ever dumped his French wine down the sewer, or stopped putting sauerkraut on his hot dogs.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[M. Porcius Cato]

I don't think as many people hate the US as Americans think; Some people hate the US, for some of the time.

 

And some people hate the US all the time for any "reason" that they can latch onto.

 

I know some will protest that there are legitimate grounds for criticizing the US. I agree; no nation is perfect. But European anti-Americanism has gone well beyond legitimate criticism into a territory where America is damned no matter what we do, where we are criticized for everything and its opposite! American *or* ("Americans too prurient"), the Lewinsky scandal ("Americans too puritanical"), skyboxes in sport stadiums ("Americans too elitist"), political correctness ("Americans too egalitarian"), the Wild West ("Americans too chaotic"), the 50-hour work week ("Americans too rigid"), the American Christmas holiday ("Americans too secular"), the American voter ("Americans too religious"), and on and on and on. Isn't it clear? No matter which direction we go--we're hated.

 

Now, I would ask my non-American friends: How many times have you encountered the phrase "creeping Americanization"? Like the anti-Semites of the 1930s, who feared that Jews were secretly behind every change in society (real or imagined), the anti-Americans react everywhere with horror and revulsion at "creeping Americanization". The Canadians change their salute? "Creeping Americanization". Halloween costumes in Switzerland? "Creeping Americanization". Coca-cola in Cairo? "Creeping Americanization". Abolishing those terraces where Sheffield football fans lost their lives? "Creeping Americanization". Automobiles in France? Why it must be "creeping Americanization"!

 

Give me a break! All this talk of "creeping Americanization" gives me the creeps: it's stupid, nationalistic xenophobia. Don't like the death penalty? Fine--but what on earth does this have to do with salutes, Halloween, Coca-cola, and automobiles? In logic, nothing. But for the anti-American, the connection is as obvious as was the connection between banking and Matzah to the anti-Semites of Weimar Germany.

Today, any hint of the unthinking rage of the anti-Semite, homophobe, and misogynist is scrupulously avoided among European intellectuals, yet a similarly unthinking contempt for anything even associated with America--hell, even our accents!--is paraded as a badge of refinement rather than hidden as the ordinary xenophobia and provincialism that it is.

 

I perfectly understand that America is not utopia, and I'm as happy to criticize America for its missteps as any other nation. But when we're damned when we do, damned when we don't, and compared to creeping vermin, the conclusion is obvious: anti-Americans don't hate America for our missteps or even just what we stand for; they hate us for standing at all.

[diegis]

"Salve", Gaius and Flavius. I must respond some things to your previous posts. First (even is somehow out of topic), about the hate, betwen US and the "rest" of the world. I dont think anybody (except probably some fanatics around the world) hate the average american citizen, but the US govern and policy. But this is probably misunderstand, or wrong interpreted, in your country, and some, as you said, not very educated, or informed peoples think that world hate them, and they must hate back. About the US army, at the end of civil war, yes, probably was the largest, as you said, but was not the strongest, or in position to dominate the world, or to atack and defeat any european major power. In WW 1 US enter at the end, and just finish the war quickly, but was not an turning point. In WW 2, yes, was one of the major player, but especially in the Pacific. In Europe, without any US intervention the war probably last longer,quite longer, but the end will was the same, Germany alliance defeated by USSR-UK alliance, but yes, US haved an important roll here,and was a turning point, but ufortunately just for western Europe. And a Coke and a big Mac is not culture (and is not even very spread here). People not die to drink a Cola, nor consider this a sign that is a superior person. The only cultural superority of US i consider is spreading of english language, but for now just as a language used in international economy and affairs, not as a language to replace the main language of another nation, even in a mix way, as latin language spread by Romans do in some regions. About the realizations of Rome vs US, i think there is a diference in impact too. Even today, after 2000 years, we use the kind of things who Romans invented (from urbanization, curent water in middle of cities, multi level buildings with apartments, cement-Colloseum was long time,almost 2000 years the bigger arena in the world, to use of military medics who care of wounded soldiers in battle). Yes ,the TV and computers is important, but i dont know if we will still use them after couple century as today, or will last and have the same impact as some of Romans realizations. The US is still to young to see if have the same impact as Rome, even if today try to resembling the domination of world who Rome haved.

 

And dear M. Porcius Cato, dont flame and victimize yourself too much. If you have enemies, it means that you exist, and you are on top. The fouls and the leaders allways pay for theyr position (too weak nations and the powerfull empires who try to dominate the whole world exist now just in history books). And nobody hate US because exist, but because what you do.

[CiceroD]

The Romans certainly believed that the might of Rome would never fall. Yet many Americans believe the same thing. I personally hope that the inevitable decline of The U.S. is less end of Roman Empire and more the end of the British empire. (I know Its like comparing apples and oranges)

 

How do you guys think its gonna end?

 

I don't think that we think of ourselves as an empire. We certainly don't think of ourselves as the suzerain of Havana or the world. We simply have a proto-moron running the show now; and he has failed at all his masters have him instructed on. I don't think that any American wants to run the show anywhere

 

When discussion first began of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" I knew many many people who didn't bat an eyelid that the majority of the UN was opposed. Is this the action of a humble nation state? Wasn't the UN supposed to prevent WW3? Now weve gone against the UN and Guess What? the world is destabilized. The general "F--- You" cowboy mentality has lead us down bad roads

 

I say we have enough chauvanism to be considered an Empire, and lately the life expectancy of Empires have been drastically reduced.

[Traianus]

diegis dixit :notworthy:

giving a Big mac or a cola as strong point for this argue or even thinking of it as "culture" is something out of place...

Appart from this, I DO NOT HATE US (America is a country to admire in many ways) it's a stupid idea, is something that you made up.The fact that somebody critize some things of America, that don't mean that he hates it.

Maybe is what american youngs have been taught: "People hate USA because we are superior" or "To critize US is to hate US"

I sometimes wonder if American do really believe all this things and if they're not aware of the manipulation in the mass-media so that's the only one reality they have. It seems everything is manipulated for the people keep thinking america is perfect or simply if they know the truth but they only want to remark the good things and "forget" the bad ones

Edited February 3, 2007 by Traianus

[Gaius Octavius]

Is it a fault that the US is the leader in science, medicine, pharmaceuticals, space, engineering, agriculture, music, consumer products, etc.? Is it a fault to have fed Europe and Asia after WWII? Is it a fault to have called for decolonization? When disasters strike throughout the world, who is there first with the mostest? Who gives the most in foreign aid, (all of which is stolen by the government leaders of the recipients)? America does not force pizza, Pepsi, or potato chips on anyone. American products and customs are accreted by others because they want them. If one doesn't want American *iagr*; don't buy it! Don't want to speak American; don't bother; stay in your cocoon. If it wasn't for Americans buying over-priced, under-valued products from abroad, these peoples would still be eating Rocky Mountain oysters for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

 

I am going to stop at this point because I have had too much rotgut. But please tempt me anon.

 

 

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You have. I shall return!

 

Edited February 3, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Traianus]

Is it a fault that the US is the leader in science, medicine, pharmaceuticals, space, engineering, agriculture, music, consumer products, etc.?

 

This is a lost cause, man, if you really think you are the best in all this matters for sure you are

Edited February 4, 2007 by Traianus

[Northern Neil]

Woah, guys... this is getting out of hand. Even Stoic, sober types are getting hot under the collar. What I will say next I think addresses some of the above views, but I relate it solely to myself because I do not arrogantly assume to speak for others.

 

In Europe, we have a tradition of criticising our polititians, and those of our neighbours. It doesnt mean we hate our country, or any other. We are just giving a counter argument, as defined by the principles of democracy. It is laudable that USA pressured Britain to dismantle its colonial empires. But forgive me for pointing out that the Midwest was acquired when we acquired bits of Africa, yet we do not see it being given back to the Indians. We thank the US for feeding us after WWII - yet we prosecuted that war for 2 years before you came in, buying vast amounts of war supplies from you at the same time. Which we have just finished paying for. We note that the US is generous with giving aid - but much of that aid has political strings attached, and anyway would be unneccessary without the WTO hamstringing poor countries at every turn. So can you see why some people may get annoyed by what they see as double standards? There is always a counterpoint to a view; please forgive us for presenting the counterpoint, at times.

 

This, I believe, is at the root of the perception that all people hate the US all the time. It is a sensitivity to criticism which is largely absent this side of the pond. If someone says to me, 'tony Blair - what a warmongering swine!!' I will agree first and foremost, and not instantly think 'Hold on... that guy is a Brit Hater!' Likewise, point out to the French that Chirac is a crook who only avoids jail because he is president, and most Frenchies will shrug, and say... 'Oui...c'est vrai!'

 

Its also the double standards with which not just your, but everyones polititians operate, that arouses much criticism. With all countries, including mine, there are polititians whose main remit is to line their pockets and manipulate the media to cover it up. America just gets mentioned most because it is bigger, has more polititians, and more greedy businessmen than, say, Switzerland or Belgium, which are much smaller.

 

Coke, McDonalds and a whole rash of cheap consumer trash are of no consequence to me, as I choose not to use them. But that, in tandem with my points above, does not make me an America hater, just someone who is honest with his friends when they are wrong, and chooses not to engage in the more downmarket aspects of a given culture. The only side you are seeing of me on this forum, at this time, is of a Brit seemingly taking a pop at America. It is not the whole, or even partial picture, though. There is not enough room here to say what I like about America, and anyway, that is not currently under discussion - a perception by Americans that the rest of the world hates you is. My hairstyle is James Dean, the music I play is Jazz and Rockabilly, there is a picture of the Chrysler building in my flat and currently 'Blue Moon of Kentucky' (Presley, Sun Sessions, 1954) is playing on my CD player. I think Hilary Clinton is horny as hell. Surely a little disagreement on recent history doesn't cancel all that out?

Edited February 4, 2007 by Northern Neil