rvmaximus Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 I imagine that the reasons for the Byzantine Emperor accepting their loyalty as his personal guard are exactly the same as why the Roman Emperors employed Germans into their own personal bodyguards. For one thing the soldiers had no local connections and were beholden to the emperor only. That is a good recipe for loyalty. Additionally they were true northern warriors, probably simpler men not use to the court politics and scheming which turn allies into enemies for a few coin. Their combat ability is beyond question, those northern warriors always being a strong and intimidating stock, just what you need for a personal guard which follows the emperor around but not necessarily filling the lines in a battle. Why did they go? I figure the answer is as common to all opportunistic soldiers; money, easy life, battle and excitement. Who wants to settle down to England when you can fight for the dirty rich and live the high life? I totally agree with the exception of nothern warriors being any better than any some others. Perhaps these were the only available? Think it was mostly because of their lack of poltical ambition. Finding this trait must ahve been an enormous task in either the western or eastern empire. I am quite sure Roman legionaires were much more effective if the poltical ambition aspects could have been nuetralized. Think the nothern warriors may have had more height on average but as Caesar noted they have very lttle endurance and look better than they actaully are. In the USA we have ethnic groups from all over the world but mainly Europe..most of us are mixed( myself 4 diiferent) but there are a few pure and in our parents day many pure. What I am getting at was some groups were athletically more gifted and were a tougher people. Those of us with northern European blood in us(Dutch here) were well aware who was what. As caucasions go we all new that the Italian boys were the most gifted in that area..we all new this...and I assume they had the most 'Roman" blood in them. (maybe not a good assumption..not sure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Those of us with northern European blood in us(Dutch here) were well aware who was what. As caucasions go we all new that the Italian boys were the most gifted in that area..we all new this...and I assume they had the most 'Roman" blood in them. (maybe not a good assumption..not sure) While it may be your experience, I find the comments to be ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvmaximus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Those of us with northern European blood in us(Dutch here) were well aware who was what. As caucasions go we all new that the Italian boys were the most gifted in that area..we all new this...and I assume they had the most 'Roman" blood in them. (maybe not a good assumption..not sure) While it may be your experience, I find the comments to be ludicrous. Sometimes truthful comments are seemingly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) What I am getting at was some groups were athletically more gifted and were a tougher people. Those of us with northern European blood in us(Dutch here) were well aware who was what. As caucasions go we all new that the Italian boys were the most gifted in that area..we all new this...and I assume they had the most 'Roman" blood in them. (maybe not a good assumption..not sure) Not the best assumption to make at all. You must remember that Italy after the West fell was populated with Ostrogoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Normans and (for a while) Byzantines. Thus being born of an Italian family doesn't ensure that you have more Roman blood in you then a person from somewhere else in Europe that was touched by Rome. Edited August 1, 2006 by Tobias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvmaximus Posted December 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 What I am getting at was some groups were athletically more gifted and were a tougher people. Those of us with northern European blood in us(Dutch here) were well aware who was what. As caucasions go we all new that the Italian boys were the most gifted in that area..we all new this...and I assume they had the most 'Roman" blood in them. (maybe not a good assumption..not sure) Not the best assumption to make at all. You must remember that Italy after the West fell was populated with Ostrogoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Normans and (for a while) Byzantines. Thus being born of an Italian family doesn't ensure that you have more Roman blood in you then for example someone born in Britain. Interesting point but Italian people I know(north east US) consider themselves decsendants of the Romans obviously out of ignorance. I can`t wait to tell them in reality they are mostly German....think I will be in trouble. Can this be genetiaclly proven(do that tha hair color matters little in genetics because dark coloring is the dominant gene)? There does seem to be a great diversity of appreances among people in various regions of italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) What a tic matey, i didn't say that it wasn't possible for them to have Roman blood, i was just saying that it was not a great idea to say that the Italians would have more Roman blood then anyone else. Please don't go upsetting people about it lol As far as genetically proving it, i'm not really in the know about that sort of thing. Bones are pretty much the only thing that can be used to match modern day people to ancient Romans, and mosaics, pictures and verbal and written accounts. Getting back to the Varangian Guard, i see them as valuable allies to the Byzantines. And it wasn't only a one way street; the Byzantines caused much of the Rus to be converted to christianity through Basil's treaty, and much of Russian architecture is of Byzantine influence. So, the advent of the Varangian Guard not only profited the Byzantines greatly, but it helped to shape Russia through the Byzantine influence on it. Edited December 22, 2005 by Tobias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Interesting point but Italian people I know(north east US) consider themselves decsendants of the Romans obviously out of ignorance. I can`t wait to tell them in reality they are mostly German....think I will be in trouble. Can this be genetiaclly proven(do that tha hair color matters little in genetics because dark coloring is the dominant gene)? There does seem to be a great diversity of appreances among people in various regions of italy. We consider ourselves descendants of the Romans. We aren't "ignorant", we know that some foreign people mixed with ours but their numbers weren't high enough to drastically change anything. People who argue otherwise are in my opinion having 'sour grapes' about the issue and are trying to deprive us of our heritage. We're descendants of the Romans; deal with it, no matter your opinion of Italians. Why do the statues of the Italian Romans still look Italian? If you're of Dutch descendent then your ancestors are barbarians. Because how many Romans were there ever in the Netherlands? We're more Roman than you, that's for sure. It's true that northern Italians show some Germanic traits and southern Italians show some Arabic traits but this is not so for the majority of central Italians. I know the same negative "sour grapes" arguments are made about modern Greeks that they "are no longer truly Greek". The people who make these arguments have obviously not seen Greek people Edited July 28, 2006 by Lex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Lex, thats quite an interesting post, because I have been watching the "extras" on the HBO Romw DVD .One of the salient points made by the director and the historical advisor was , that the use of Roman extras (they filmed in Rome) gave lots of subtle veritas to the whole proceeding, in terms of gesture, deportment, emotion and "bella figura" generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) You have at him Lex. Heave great amounts of micture, feculence and corruption at the scholar. He has the right to claim perfidy for his ancestry, but not to impose it on his betters. If he had a drop of Eyetalian blood in him, he wouldn't resort to such non-sense. And a ba fa en goule to him. I always need correction. Why do I think that this thread was about the Varingian guard? Edited July 28, 2006 by Gaius Octavius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I merely report the effulgence of HBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I merely report the effulgence of HBO. My Lord: The above was not in reference to Your Grace. :notworthy: Certainly not the suggestion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 No offense intended to most of the people above, but the discussion of ethnicity that resulted from the "Varangian Guard" thread was screaming to be sent to the Arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princeps Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 (edited) ...being born of an Italian family doesn't ensure that you have more Roman blood in you then for example someone born in Britain. I disagree. It virtually guarantees it. Edited July 29, 2006 by Princeps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 one might consider that the modern state Italy is a relatively young one... In the years after the roman empire fell, there were the Lombards, which made the Popes call the Franks (more germans) for help and basically created the Papal state, but later the city states like Genua or Venice, did they care about something called Italy? I doubt it. It would be interesting to know if a Michelangelo call himself Italian? I dont know, did Marco Polo call himself italian? I dont know... I do know however that anyone in Europe that claims to be pure descendant of state that existed 2000 years ago is simply wrong. In Europe with mass imigration for thousands of years, there aint not such thing as pure... p.s. The Romans back then cared little were you are from, so why should we now? my 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 one might consider that the modern state Italy is a relatively young one... In the years after the roman empire fell, there were the Lombards, which made the Popes call the Franks (more germans) for help and basically created the Papal state, but later the city states like Genua or Venice, did they care about something called Italy? I doubt it. It would be interesting to know if a Michelangelo call himself Italian? I dont know, did Marco Polo call himself italian? I dont know... I think the Italians were certainly aware of their shared classical culture, it certainly influenced Michelangelo and Dante to name two but of course they were loyal to their city-states rather than a larger Italy. The history of the Germans is an interesting parrallel to Italy during this time in that respect. I do know however that anyone in Europe that claims to be pure descendant of state that existed 2000 years ago is simply wrong. In Europe with mass imigration for thousands of years, there aint not such thing as pure... Even Italy wasn't homogenous in it's make-up. The north had a healthy number of Gauls while the south was filled with Greeks, as I've said before so much so there are still a few towns where an ancient form of Greek is still the primary language today. Even the central portion contained a number of tribes although many of them spoke related languages and may have shared common origins. p.s. The Romans back then cared little were you are from, so why should we now?... That was a nice feature of the Empire but remember they were lavish with favors but damn stingy with granting that 'citizen' label during the Republic. It took the Social War to even get them grant it to long-time allies many of whom shared related languages like Oscan and who'd fought alongside them even remaining loyal during Hannibal's 16 year trek through Italy. When JC decided to grant the first Gaul a senate seat it wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms by many Romans. I've had to listen to 15 or more years of North Carolinians waxing poetic about ancestors in the Civil War and still mumbling about those people 'in the mountains' staying loyal to the Union. Don't begrudge me (or Lex) of the daydream that maybe a some obnoxious old Roman soldier from ancient Abruzzo who came back to retire in his native province was a distant relative! But seriously, I think it's just human nature for people or peoples to wax on about their pasts. Even that damn 'Hermann' got a statue by 'those' people proud of his exploits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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