Lorica Segmentata

[Pertinax]

Had a look in a few books and it appears the Hastati and Princep's of the Republican Maniples wore a Greave on the left leg,the forward leg in the battle stance.

ok,if he's wearing Greaves i'll try to get my Spear into his face .It is possible,i saw a 'Pict' reenactor showing how to roll the wrist to get the Spear tip around a Shield and up into the head area.

 

I have a question regarding the Scutums,how popular was this design of shield?Its a Celtic design so i assume there was plenty of them in the Gallic tribes.Did many of Rome's enemy's face them with the same equipment? Its such a fine Shield i would of thought it was a favourite amongst the Warriors of the age.

 

L

I think we can only guess about "standardisation" , (the scutum is mighty fine is it not?):

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=965

 

this image shows off the scutii and the protective leather coverings. There seems to be a general uniformity of arms and basic protective kit, but subtle personal variations , everyone seems to have different pattern gladii (the balance of a particular sword might suit an individual ), helmets differ slightly, (as has been said elsewhere good helmets would be re-cycled ) and belt furniture seems to be totally individual. A trooper must have had to conform to a discipline of presentability and appropriate arms, but where is the starting point? If you are a recruit from the backwoods the Legion will have to initially give you your basic gear, thereafter I assume a man might accumulate trophies and spoils (and "upgrades") from the fallen.

[Pertinax]

Just the thing here , at least as regards helmets and some suggestions regarding "standardisation".

 

http://www.legiiavg.org.uk/articles/articl...ic_helmets.html

[longbow]

I think we can only guess about "standardisation"

 

Indeed,the book i referenced was referring to the early Republic soldier's.Soldiers who were still wearing the Pectorale breast guard.

Dont you think the Legionnaries feet are vulnerable?if i cant get my spear into his ankles because of the Greaves i think a nice leaf bladed Spear could slice through his caligae and take two or three toes off .

 

L

[Pertinax]

I think we can only guess about "standardisation"

 

Indeed,the book i referenced was referring to the early Republic soldier's.Soldiers who were still wearing the Pectorale breast guard.

Dont you think the Legionnaries feet are vulnerable?if i cant get my spear into his ankles because of the Greaves i think a nice leaf bladed Spear could slice through his caligae and take two or three toes off .

 

L

As long as your are confident that you wont get a gladius in your armpit! If your using a spear you will have the basic "timing" problem of the longsword , ie: handling the longer weapon will always mean the Legionary will have time to take a couple of prods at your ribs whilst you re-balance your weapon.

 

I did ,as an aside to the HBO Rome notes ive put on thread, hear Ray Stevenson say that out of all the gear they used (all as authentic as possible) the one thing that was a real irritant was the Caligae. Ok I know Westerners wil have soft feet nowadays , but its interesting to note the aside-he said they were wet, always full of grit and just generally irritating to wear.So time for some earlly Saxon re-enactment id say.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Here is a shot of the fastenings:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=941

 

as you can see the number of straps is quite large, so its not a piece of kit you can slip in and out of at

 

"and here is why you need help putting the segmental armour on-all the fastening straps are at the rear (for obvious reasons) ."

 

 

I watched the documentary on the Legions in Trajan's Dacian Wars again and noticed the Lorica Segmentata was put on like a jacket, by one man- the ties in the front. I wouldn't think the History Channel would get that wrong... I swear... he put it on like a jacket!

 

For the sake of argument, even if the straps are in front, no screaming barbarian can take it off unless you lose your scutum, but if you lose that you're screwed anyways.

 

So now what...I believe guys who do the re-enacting thing all the time... but wonder if the history channel is right...

[Lost_Warrior]

Lol it WOULD make sense to put it on with the ties in the front. FAR more practical. Unless you can dislocate your shoulders.

[Skarr]

Speaking of caligae, most modern men would find this extremely difficult, as our feet are too "soft".

 

Most of the Roman soldiers would have already had hard, callused soles on their feet, as the skin toughens and grows an additional layer of its own, which you might find today among the more native tribes that still exist - maybe in some parts of Africa and Asia. Caligae would have been extremely comfortable for these folks, inured as they are to all kinds of rough terrain. The standard issue caligae had layers of rough, thick leather, providing a good cushion and were hob nailed, to provide that extra leverage and grip that the soldiers needed, as they really needed to dig into the ground to maintain their line. Re-enactments in the modern era are never close to the harsh physical realities that must have existed at the time, especially food. For the average soldier, the daily diet was monotonous, dreary and something that they just stuffed in their bodies to survive. This, combined with their extraordinary physical exertions, must have made them incredibly tough, with wiry bodies and lean muscles, something which you just don't see today, except maybe in champion atheletes or other sports which demand that level of physical activity.

 

Ray Stevenson, despite his size, bulk and strength, would not have lasted very long in the actual legion and would have called it quits after merely an hour's march at normal pace.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Here is a shot of the fastenings:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=941

 

as you can see the number of straps is quite large, so its not a piece of kit you can slip in and out of at

 

"and here is why you need help putting the segmental armour on-all the fastening straps are at the rear (for obvious reasons) ."

 

 

I watched the documentary on the Legions in Trajan's Dacian Wars again and noticed the Lorica Segmentata was put on like a jacket, by one man- the ties in the front. I wouldn't think the History Channel would get that wrong... I swear... he put it on like a jacket!

 

For the sake of argument, even if the straps are in front, no screaming barbarian can take it off unless you lose your scutum, but if you lose that you're screwed anyways.

 

So now what...I believe guys who do the re-enacting thing all the time... but wonder if the history channel is right...

 

Now that Pertinax is back, we need to settle this. What say you sir?

[Pertinax]

The whole thing is sectional and it would be possible to do either , but , I suggest from my own experience that leaving the front permanently tied and the rear as the "usual" fastening is sensible: a buddy fastening the knots with free hands is more likely to tie secure knots. One would not have the time or luxury to disassemble the whole thing in the field , so "ready use" must be important .

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=998

 

all these men actually fastened these Lorica from the rear.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Ahh, I didn't know there were straps on both front and back. It all is so clear now. Many thanks.

[Quintus Sertorius]

I watched the documentary on the Legions in Trajan's Dacian Wars again and noticed the Lorica Segmentata was put on like a jacket, by one man- the ties in the front. I wouldn't think the History Channel would get that wrong... I swear... he put it on like a jacket!

 

For the sake of argument, even if the straps are in front, no screaming barbarian can take it off unless you lose your scutum, but if you lose that you're screwed anyways.

 

So now what...I believe guys who do the re-enacting thing all the time... but wonder if the history channel is right...

 

 

Paradise comes at a price that I am not prepared to pay.

 

I'm not claiming expertise, but I was under the impression Trajan had to make his soldiers stop using the lorica segmentata as it was too vunerable to the Dacian Falx and moved to earlier chainmail worn by Marian Legionaries.

[caldrail]

I haven't come across this interesting anecdote before. Trajan's column shows troops in conventional lorica segmentata although I have to admit that you must allow some artistic license from the masons who carved the reliefs.

 

I don't know if the Roman armour was especially vulnerable to dacian weaponry. There's no obvious reason for that. However, we are told by the Romans that in imperial times a legionary swung his sword as much as thrusted with it. Now whilst the gladius was a little shorter by Trajans day, this mode of fighting would still require a looser formation, or the legionaries are going to be smacking their colleagues as well. A swing requires room which the traditional close order drill does not allow for.

 

If the story is true, then possibly the dacian falx was better able to cope with Roman armour not because of any particular inherent weakness in design, but rather that the employment of the armour was exposed by open order fighting and therefore did not protect the soldier in the same way as a tight formation would allow.

 

However - I would hazard a guess that Roman style chainmail was not that much more protective than banded metal plates overall. There might be other reasons.

[Melvadius]

Like Caldrail I haven't heard of this particular vulnerability however I believe the usual suggestion is that the Romans may have issued gladiator style arm defences to some troops and also leg greaves for the same reason.

 

What is definitely known from the period is that the Romans' felt their helmets were particularly vulnerable to the weapons used by the Dacian's (ie the falx) for which reason around this period helmets some have been found with crossed metal bars retrofitted across their top.

 

I suspect that this meotope from the Adamclisi monument shows one of these reinforced helmets in use.

 

This conflict actually led to permanent changes to Roman helmets with later versions generally incorporating some forms of reinforcing strips, eventually becoming to some extent a 'decorative' feature

[DecimusCaesar]

I would have thought that a soldier armoured with a lorica segmentata and a submaralis, would have been better protected against a Dacian Falx than a soldier wearing a lorica hamata - although chainmail was designed to protect against slashing attacks. As for helmets, there is evidence that crude 'hot cross bun' shaped iron guards were placed on top of the helmet to protect the soldier from downward blows from the falx. Some soldiers also took to wearing iron plated arm guards on their sword arms.

I've always wondered how succesful these modifications would hae been against the Falx. Is it true that a Falx could cleave a man in two?

[Northern Neil]

Having re-read the old posts on this thread as well as the new ones, I see repeated references to legionaries wearing Lorica Segmentata, and Auxilia wearing chainmail. And of course, 'everybody knows' that this was the case. Apart from Trajans column, is there any hard evidence or original source which supports this assertion? I just think it is rather too neat an hypothesis, and Lorica Segmentata has been known to turn up in non-loegionary contexts, such as auxilliary forts.