Singing

[Gaius Octavius]

I don't think that it would be a long shot to believe that the Romans sang. I am also sure that they had 'high' and 'low' singing. Where was it done? Did they have anything like our opera houses or cabarets? I would also guess that the lads had marching songs and camp ditties. Is there a record of these and are they ever performed today? Do the reenactors perform these on the march or in camp?

[Pantagathus]

Forgive me for not seeing this earlier...

 

I know for one that the Salii (dancing priests of Mars) had their Carmen Saliare which were archaic chants that I do believe were sung.

 

The verses were called axamenta and have been found in fragments of early Latin.

 

On an off topic side note, the origin of the word axamenta has been much disputed... However, I personally find it's etymology (because of the Ax prefix) strikingly reminicent of the alledged names of 3 Samothracian Cabeiri: Axieros, Axiocersa, and Axiocersus.

 

Why do I bring this up? Because if you read what historians like Dionysius say about the prehistoric Italian setting before and around the time King Numa instituted the Salii, (a practice which we are told was borrowed from the Latin's neighbors) it starts to seem quite plausible that there really was a Pelasgic connection between the Roman Salii and the ones of Samothrace... Dionysius has interesting things to say about the 'Tyrrhennian Pelasgians' who in other historical treatments seem to pop up quite a bit in and around Samothrace and Lemnos...

 

So I wonder, and I know the connection is tenuous, but is the reason later Romans didn't understand the Carmen Saliare because they were modified from the Pelasgian language into archaic Latin?

 

Dr. Dalby, are you listening?

[Primus Pilus]

Indulge me something referring to singing that I am readily aware of:

 

From Tacitus referring to Nero (Annals Book XV, XXXIII):

 

Hitherto he had sung in private houses or gardens, during the Juvenile games, but these he now despised, as being but little frequented, and on too small a scale for so fine a voice.

 

Latin:

nam adhuc per domum aut hortos cecinerat Iuvenalibus ludis, quos ut parum celebres et tantae voci angustos spernebat.

 

The word cecinerat translates as: sing, celebrate, chant; crow; recite; play (music)/sound (horn); foretell;

 

Also from verse XXXIX referring to Nero's attempted alimenta in relieving the plight of Romans after the great fire:

These acts, though popular, produced no effect, since a rumour had gone forth everywhere that, at the very time when the city was in flames, the emperor appeared on a private stage and sang of the destruction of Troy, comparing present misfortunes with the calamities of antiquity.

 

In Latin:

quae quamquam popularia in inritum cadebant, quia pervaserat rumor ipso tempore flagrantis urbis inisse eum domesticam scaenam et cecinisse Troianum excidium, praesentia mala vetustis cladibus adsimulantem.

 

Here Tacitus uses the same root word only in the different form for the context of the sentence. In this case we really don't know what the word may actually mean. Was he singing with melodic tones, or simply reciting some text (ie singer of songs Tony Curtis in the Spartacus movie)

 

I guess one way to consider this is if there are different words to describe different type of singing/oration.

 

And there are...

 

This terribly long list of Latin words associated with the word sing (some are completely irrelevant).

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookdown.pl?sing Various words imply different forms of singing... with a specific musical instrument, as a form of oration, etc. Unfortunately I can't speak for the origin of these words... whether they be ancient or medieval, but judging by the many descriptions of "singing" I suppose it can be reasonably assumed that melodic expression in voice was used. Otherwise, why so many ways to imply the art.

 

{perhaps a jump in logic on my part, but hopefully it inspires more discussion}

[Gaius Octavius]

P.P., thanks, a useful site. I hope that someone comes up with an ancient Latin ditty used by the lads.

[Pantagathus]

Was he singing with melodic tones, or simply reciting some text (ie singer of songs Tony Curtis in the Spartacus movie)

 

Based on the definition of the non-inflected root Cano, I would say he was singing melodically not reciting.

 

 

I hope that someone comes up with an ancient Latin ditty used by the lads.

I'd say your best bet is to pick through Horace, Martial and folks like that to find evidence of ditties.

[Primus Pilus]

I'd say your best bet is to pick through Horace, Martial and folks like that to find evidence of ditties.

 

There is also that bit about Caesar sung by his men during his triumph that's come up a few times around here:

 

From Suetonius "Life of Caesar"

All the Gauls did Caesar vanquish, Nicomedes vanquished him;

Lo ! now Caesar rides in triumph, victor over all the Gauls,

Nicomedes does not triumph, who subdued the conqueror.

 

Men of Rome, keep close your consorts, here's a bald adulterer.

Gold in Gaul you spent in dalliance, which you borrowed here in Rome.

 

And in Latin:

Gallias Caesar subegit, Nicomedes Caesarem:

Ecce Caesar nunc triumphat qui subegit Gallias,

Nicomedes non triumphat qui subegit Caesarem

 

Urbani, servate uxores: moechum calvom adducimus.

Aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum.

 

Interestingly in relation to the preceeding discussion.. Suetonius says this before the first three lines of the song...

 

Gallico denique triumpho milites eius inter cetera carmina, qualia currum prosequentes ioculariter canunt, etiam illud vulgatissimum pronuntiaverunt

 

which translates as:

Finally, in his Gallic triumph his soldiers, among the bantering songs which are usually sung by those who follow the chariot, shouted these lines, which became a byword

 

Notice that he uses the words carmina (song), canunt (sung), pronuntiaverunt (announce, proclaim, recite)

 

And then he says this prior to the final two lines:

Ne provincialibus quidem matrimoniis abstinuisse vel hoc disticho apparet iactato aeque a militibus per Gallicum triumphum

 

which translates as:

That he did not refrain from intrigues in the provinces is shown in particular by this couplet, which was also shouted by the soldiers in his Gallic triumph.

 

Here he used the word iactacto which has been translated as shout.

 

Clearly there are different words to reflect different forms of expression just in these two samples from Tacitus and Suetonius. Imagine how descriptive the various forms of delivery may be if there was a surviving text on Roman entertainment along the lines of Vitruvius' manuals on archtecture and Frontinus' on aqueducts.

[Gaius Octavius]

I wonder how the lads got away with that! Nice work P.P. If this thread becomes more successful, Pertinax and his crowd will be able to sing them at his forthcoming Jamboree or Sousing affair. Practical!

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

I had read of one (a little ditty) in a book a while back, but I must wait until school starts to get at that book again. It was a song a few lines long making fun of the gauls. It would be a valid assumption to say it was in the chapter about Caeser...

[WotWotius]

The Carmen Saeculare, or Secular Hymn, was a song written by the poet Horace, commissioned by Augustus. It was sung during the Emperor's Secular Games.

 

Its purpose was, along with generally glorifying Augustus and his empire, was to promote the restoration of the traditional Olympian Gods--many citizens of Rome had long been seduced by eastern religions such a Cybele worship.

 

If you want the latin version click here.

If you would like the translation click here.

 

Oh, and as for the little 'ditties' you were asking for: read Suetonius' life of Tiberius you will find a song the disgruntled population sung about him. I would quote it but I haven't got my copy anymore.

Edited August 3, 2006 by WotWotius

[Gaius Octavius]

Thanks all for you help. Yet, did they have anything like our opera houses or night clubs or pubs?

Edited August 3, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[WotWotius]

I assume that most choired singing too place within odea or theatres.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Necro post. Hurrah! Edit: Correct song placed in.

 

The ditty I mentioned above goes something like this: (Thanks to WotWotius!)

 

'Home we bring our bald whoremonger; Romans, lock your wives away!

All the bags of gold you lent him Went his Gallic tarts to pay.'

Edited September 8, 2006 by Antiochus of Seleucia

[WotWotius]

Necro post. Hurrah!

 

The ditty I mentioned above goes something like this:

 

"Oh ye Romans! Here come the Gauls, lock your wives away!"

 

A little chant at a triumphal procession after the defeat of some Gauls.

 

I had a thumb through Suetonius, and according to him the song actually goes:

 

'Home we bring our bald whoremonger; Romans, lock your wives away!

All the bags of gold you lent him Went his Gallic tarts to pay.'

 

Another marching song, sung by the legions of Caesar during his famous quadruple triumphs, goes as follows:

 

'Gaul was brought to shame by Caesar:By King Nicomedes, he.

Here comes Caesar, wreathed in triumph For his Gallic victory!

Nicomedes wears no laurels Though the greatest of the three.'

 

It seems strange that the latter song reinforces Caesar's reputation for homosexuality, and the former suggests the complete opposite. Maybe his legions loved him so much, they felt comfortable enough to mock him facetiously in the manner that friends do.

Edited September 8, 2006 by WotWotius

[Primus Pilus]

Necro post. Hurrah!

 

The ditty I mentioned above goes something like this:

 

"Oh ye Romans! Here come the Gauls, lock your wives away!"

 

A little chant at a triumphal procession after the defeat of some Gauls.

 

I had a thumb through Suetonius, and according to him the song actually goes:

 

Read about half the page back up where the actual Latin is posted. The English translation varies based on era and the translator.

[WotWotius]

I suppose the quote was mediated so that the English translation would rhyme.