Cicero, Great Statesman Or Over-rated

[theilian]

Yes, but keep in mind that, for some reason, the book seems to focus on the antics of Cato and Caesar.

I didn't actually read Sallust, so I don't know, but wasn't Cato the symbol of Republicanism by then? So I imagine that it would be natural to write Cataline conspiracy in terms of Caesar vs. Cato.

[P.Clodius]

Love him or hate him Cicero is the only one who reaches us on a human level from this period. For this reason I love Cicero!

[WotWotius]

Well, I am merely thankful to Cicero.

[CiceroD]

Its soo sad that people seem to be forgetting Cicero.

 

Whenever I approached someone about reading Anthony Everitt's Cicero

about two out of three people thought that he was an EMPEROR!

those that didn't heard the name but really had no idea who he was.

I guess its inevitable though with the decline in classics taught in schools.

 

Want to talk about someone rolling in their Grave!

Its depressing

[theilian]

Whenever I approached someone about reading Anthony Everitt's Cicero

about two out of three people thought that he was an EMPEROR!

those that didn't heard the name but really had no idea who he was.

I guess its inevitable though with the decline in classics taught in schools.

 

Its depressing

 

While surfing internet, I just came across this hilarious description of Cicero

Cicero was a lawyer and a well respected statesman for the government in Sicily. He gained notoriety through representing small, well presented cases and built up a strong reputation. He was a rather flamboyant lawyer - much like the F. Lee Bailey of his times - and was noted as an ornate, effusive speaker who used broad gestures to keep his audience involved. His most famous case was the Cataline trial where Cicero represented the government against Cataline for crimes against the government. Cataline was tried for attempting to overthrow the government. Cicero won and, even though Cicero argued against the death penalty, Cataline was put to death.

 

Following the Cataline trial, Cicero was found guilty of irregularities in preparation of the trial and kicked out of Rome. He remained political and supported Pompeii but later reconciled with Caesar (even though he disliked Caesar greatly and continued to speak out against this dictatorship. In fact, he hated dictatorship so much, he helped persuade Rome to march war against Mark Anthony on Octavius' side, even though he was a pacifist.) In 43 A.D., he was proscribed to be killed (people were placed on a secret list by the government for a proscription of their death), but he learned of this and escaped. He was eventually assassinated in 45 A.D. and his head and hands - his two most powerful tools - were put on public display. Cataline's wife insisted they be presented to her as proof he was dead. They were presented to her on a silver platter.

Edited November 9, 2006 by theilian

[CiceroD]

wow someone should do their research

[Pertinax]

I fear I cannot resist the line - "His Two most Powerful Tools were put on public display"

 

A man of many parts! :pimp:

[WotWotius]

...hehe!

[CiceroD]

Is This True?

 

I really hope this is another instance of the unreliable internet.

All Ive heard is that his executioner commissioned a statue of himself sitting by Cicero's head

but public display?

 

That makes me sad for my namesake

[The Augusta]

"In 43 A.D., he was proscribed to be killed (people were placed on a secret list by the government for a proscription of their death), but he learned of this and escaped. He was eventually assassinated in 45 A.D"

 

Good heavens! No wonder he's had such an influence on later ages, living as long as he did!

[theilian]

Is This True?

 

I really hope this is another instance of the unreliable internet.

All Ive heard is that his executioner commissioned a statue of himself sitting by Cicero's head

but public display?

 

That makes me sad for my namesake

 

I think Cicero's head and hand(s) being on public display is about the only thing that the article is right.

[WotWotius]

As for your point on Cicero apparently renouncing tyrants: notice that Cicero only launched his full-scale condemnation of Caesarian 'tyranny' after the death of Caesar. This in effect proves what has been frequently stated throughout this thread: Cicero was a contradictory coward.

 

There is plenty of evidence for Cicero's cowardice and ingratiating behavior, but I'd not include his silence during Caesar's dictatorship, when free speech and free competition for political office had come to an end. Under such conditions of dictatorship, there is no point in speaking out--there is only revolution or submission. The chief reason Cicero did not join the plot to rid the republic of that thug Caesar was that no one trusted Cicero's resolve. However, once the deed was done, Cicero was energetic in attempting to prevent another Caesar from gaining power.

 

Fair enough. Do you believe that the were other reasons for Cicero's exclusion from the plot

[M. Porcius Cato]

Do you believe that the were other reasons for Cicero's exclusion from the plot

[Cicero63]

I think people are being a bit harsh on Cicero. Life was harder for Cicero compared to many Roman politicians as he did not fit in either political camp. Yet despite this he achieved the great honour of becoming consul, defended Rome in the Catiline conspiracy (which I think alone makes him great) and remained a figurehead throughout his career. In addition to this he was a master of oratory and always remembered that he served others and not only himself; In comparison to a lot of other Consuls, Cicero achieved much, especially for such a low, previously unknown family name.

[Urbs Aedificator]

Was Cicero a great statesman? Hard to say. One has to approach the question from two views. Firstly, the view from that of a Roman of his day. If the Roman of the day was monied, and was politically connected, I venture that he was viewed as an annoyance, although at times useful. If the Roman of the day was a Pleb., I also venture he was viewed as a champion, especially if one were fortunate enough to hear his 'honeyed' speeches in person.

Secondly, the view from today, compared to the modern statesmen. I feel Cicero would fit right in with most of today's 'statesmen'. I feel that many statesmen or so called statesmen nowadays just don't measure up to many Roman Republic politicians. Certainly the modern ones don't exhibit the skill or eloquence of speech that Cicero did.

In his speeches Cicero unfailingly self promotes himself, and I feel, that he felt this was necessary to further his political career. Not coming from the monied aristocracy this was a necessary tactic. I feel this is one reason why Cicero leaves such a 'bad taste' in readers mouths so to speak. His use of sophistry should not be compared to the 'sophistry' used by modern politicians.

In conclusion, from a 21st century perspective he is likely over-rated as a statesman. But to me Cicero's skill at rhetoric will always be viewed as his strength. Maybe this is how we should remember him.

Alex