Wine

[Andrew Dalby]

"The origin of macaroni lies not with the Etruscans, Greeks, Romans, or Chinese, but apparently with the Arabs. The earliest evidence of a true macaroni occurs at the juncture of medieval Sicilian, Italian, and Arab cultures"

 

This is surely true as far as it goes. The question is, can we trace it further back still? There seem to be three Greek words involved here --

 

makaria, itria, lagana

 

All three of these words turn up in modern Italian (or in southern dialects e.g. Sicilian) as names of kinds of pasta. The first of those words probably became maccherone / macaroni. And what Pantagathus says is right, I believe: these three words represented some kind of pasta at the moment when the southern Italians borrowed them from the Arabs. But did they already represent some kind of pasta at the time the Arabs borrowed those words from the Greeks, in late Roman/early Byzantine times? Clearly, words can change their meanings, and no one in classical sources describes clearly the making of pasta.

 

What exactly did those words mean originally? So far as I know, no one has answered this conclusively. There's a dissertation (or a Nobel prize) in this for someone.

[Pantagathus]

C'mon, they already had cous cous...it's not much of a jump...same wheat (I believe),

 

The Doc is right, the issue revoloves around the whole "hard wheat" thing aka: Triticum turgidum, durum or semolina. As explained in detail Here

 

Sorry to cause anquish. ^_^

Edited July 24, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Gaius Octavius]

I have read Pantagathus citation carefully. This doesn't mean that I know what I am talking about.

Nonetheless, it is basically a list of words and their etymologies. It is larded with 'maybe', 'perhaps' and 'could be'. At no point does the author emphatically state that macaroni was invented here or there. One would hate to go to court prosecuting a case on this type of 'evidence'. In his final paragraph, the author states:

 

"So much of the early history of macaroni focuses on Sicily. We don't know if that is where it was invented, but we do know that it was a food mostly eaten by the privileged aristocracy and by the Jewish population."

 

If one doesn't know that is where it was invented, then one doesn't know where it was invented. Or one would say so.

 

The differences between, and the uses of soft and hard wheat are well examined. Various recipies for cooking various shapes in various 'sauces' by various authors of various nationalities are cited, but this has nothing to do with where it was invented. The author does state that the Arabs and others used 'macaroni' or a macaroni like substance in their armies because of its shelf life. And that macaroni like substances were/are eaten by Arabs. Again, this has nothing to do with where it was invented.

 

Pantagathus also uses the word apparently in his earlier post.

 

An interesting point did crop up. A Latin-Sicilian dictionary. If Sicilian weren't a 'language', then there would be no need for a dictionary. I refer this bit back to another thread on languages and dialects.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Andrew Dalby]

I have read Pantagathus citation carefully. This doesn't mean that I know what I am talking about.

Nonetheless, it is basically a list of words and their etymologies. It is larded with 'maybe', 'perhaps' and 'could be'. At no point does the author emphatically state that macaroni was invented here or there ...

 

An interesting point did crop up. A Latin-Sicilian dictionary. If Sicilian weren't a 'language', then there would be no need for a dictionary. I refer this bit back to another thread on languages and dialects.

 

I'm sure your point about the vagueness of the evidence, at every stage, is well taken. As for the language question (if there's another thread more suitable, I'm sure the powers that be will move my reply) I don't agree with you on that, because (1) you can have dialect dictionaries, there are lots of them, and (2) anyway it is difficult, not to say impossible, to decide what is a language and what is a dialect. In my previous posting I may have grouped Sicilian as a dialect but I really think that Sicilian ticks nearly all the boxes for being a language.

[Gaius Octavius]

Oh, OK, I agree with you! Now how about Neapolitan, the language of the inimitable people who made glorious macaroni what it is today? Have you ever had a sfloigliatelle, that ultimate of desserts DEFINITELY invented by the glorious Neapolitans, the people who delight your palate with Lachryma Christi?

What new SLANDER will Pantagathus (and you) aggravate me with? GRRRRRAH Just can't wait for Pertinax to put his two farthings in.

 

[docoflove1974]

Oh bother

 

Whether you call them dictionaries or grammars, 'dialects' have been studied and documented for many a decade, and in some cases for a couple of centuries now.

 

As far as 'language' vs. 'dialect'...it depends on whose definition you're talking about. In the linguistics realm, the distinction is pretty clear: you have 2 'dialects' when there is some level of mutual intelligibility--albeit strained, as I can think of many friends who couldn't watch "Trainspotting" without the English subtitles, although I didn't need help in understanding (most) anyone. On the other hand, there are 2 'languages' when there is zero intelligibility.

 

What most people use as the criterion for 'language' vs. 'dialect' usually centers around political lines: there is usually only "Chinese" (until you realize that Cantonese, Mandarin and the like are very different, and no where near mutually intelligible!), "Serbian" and "Croatian" are separated (yet there is a very high level of mutual intelligibility...yet you will never hear either a Serb or a Croat tell that story!), as well as "Norwegian" and "Swedish" are traditionally separated (again, they're usually considered dialects of each other).

 

The Italians consider the different regional 'speeches' to be dialects, although I will tell you from personal as well as other antectdotal accounts that I cannot understand most Southern Italian speech (Sicilian in particular), so one could argue with that. I would argue, based on the linguistic data, that there might be a 'Sicilian language,' because of actual differences in the inflectional structure. But there is much debate regarding this, and I really don't have the time nor space to do it justice.

 

As for the dessert...I thought Neopolitans just had that funny ice cream

[Andrew Dalby]

On the other hand, there are 2 'languages' when there is zero intelligibility.

 

Now I understand. Mrs D and I have been speaking different languages all these years.

[Pertinax]

On the other hand, there are 2 'languages' when there is zero intelligibility.

 

Now I understand. Mrs D and I have been speaking different languages all these years.

 

Mrs P and I communicate by a system of grunts and shrugs .

[Primus Pilus]

My wife and I communicate only in broken sentences between intermittent shouting of children, things breaking, and the barking of rather large dogs. It's why wine is so popular in our house.

[docoflove1974]

My wife and I communicate only in broken sentences between intermittent shouting of children, things breaking, and the barking of rather large dogs. It's why wine is so popular in our house.

 

This is what has kept my parents together for 30+ years!

[Pertinax]

So Bacchus is our Deity then , not Venus?

[Gaius Octavius]

Thank Jove that P.P. is taking part in this major digression, else he might split it off - again.

Doll, all your eruidition to the contrary not withstanding, you could never defend your amusing musings in a Sicilian or Neapolitan court. And you can take that to the bank! With the weather you are having out there in la-la land, I understand all yet I'll bet that you would spring for a bucket of bucks for a NEAPOLITAN GELATO!

Get a map; get an A/C; get a Neapolitan sfoigliatelle and a Sicilian canoli. Wash them down with Lachryma Christi and then sit back and watch the grass grow with a beaker of Cynar on ice.

 

Now, as to the 'female' problem. It stems from a mutant gene shared by all women. This results in unintelligible babble; illogic and the female of the species is more deadly than the male! I commend silence and obedience to them. :bag: :wub:

 

 

So Bacchus is our Deity then , not Venus?

 

:notworthy: Hah?

 

Edited July 26, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Primus Pilus]

Thank Jove that P.P. is taking part in this major digression, else he might split it off - again.

 

LOL, notice that I actually began the split from my own off-topic post so as not to lay blame elsewhere for the direction of the original thread.

 

Of course you guys did take up the off-topic escapade with a amplified zealousness

[Gaius Octavius]

Thank Jove that P.P. is taking part in this major digression, else he might split it off - again.

 

LOL, notice that I actually began the split from my own off-topic post so as not to lay blame elsewhere for the direction of the original thread.

 

Of course you guys did take up the off-topic escapade with a amplified zealousness

 

P.P., pray tell, what in the blue balzes is the topic now?

 

Edited July 26, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Primus Pilus]

Thank Jove that P.P. is taking part in this major digression, else he might split it off - again.

 

LOL, notice that I actually began the split from my own off-topic post so as not to lay blame elsewhere for the direction of the original thread.

 

Of course you guys did take up the off-topic escapade with a amplified zealousness

 

P.P., pray tell, what in the blue balzes is the topic now?

 

 

I think it would now clearly fall into the "other miscellany" category.

 

By the by, I enjoyed some Finger Lakes region wine brought home from my recent vacation to that area. A particular wine (Runway Red) from Deer Run Winery near Geneseo, NY is a table wine of the most exotic flavors. Frankly, I'd never tasted anything quite like it and am at a bit of a loss in how to describe it.